WCF GM2 05/21 @ Vegas (2PM CT) - Running up that Hill

[ScubaSteve]

I only root for hockey teams that pay me

[dyhp]

I only root for hockey teams that pay me

This is stupid but it made me lol.

[dyhp]

Anyways, I'm just going to listen to Taylor Swift Folklore and move on.

[Troy McClure]

I only root for hockey teams that pay me

Is that how you thought your past posts came across?

[Jason]

They do that all the time, seems as it's a system problem. Leave players uncovered in front of the net watching the puck along the boards, corner or behind the net.

Vegas taking away the stretch pass in DeBoer's system is giving players like Harley problems.

[ScubaSteve]

I only root for hockey teams that pay me

Is that how you thought your past posts came across?

I should have added a “well” to the end of that sentence

[The Frugal Gourmet]

They do that all the time, seems as it's a system problem. Leave players uncovered in front of the net watching the puck along the boards, corner or behind the net.

Vegas taking away the stretch pass in DeBoer's system is giving players like Harley problems.

I think Severyn is out of his mind.

[Math]

At least, the goal remains the same: the Stars need to win once in Vegas...

Too bad they Hurricaned it. They had better looks than in game #1, that Vegas team was beatable today. I didn't like how they constantly skated back everytime the Knights attacked and giving them too much space. And if it was Lundkvist who have had that brain fart, he would have been sent to the minors for the next eight years.

[The Frugal Gourmet]

If you look at the Severyn thread, there are like 50 people wishing death upon Suter right now.

Lol.

Let me explain how stupid this philosophy of sports is. It's probably the philosophy of our previous coach and why he sucks.

There will never be a hockey team that doesn't make huge mistakes like that every game.

Do we think Vegas doesn't make mistakes? Considering the amount of time spent in their zone, I would argue they actually make more.

Do you think our leads in both games weren't gaffes by them? that Hintz one was way more brain dead than Suter's.

Vegas has come back from behind .. what... 8 times now? Because that's what good teams do. They know their players willl make mistakes and just go ahead and win anyway.

How many times have the Stars overcome giving up a lead? Zero?

It may happen that we have a game where our defensemen don t have any costly mistakes but it will never happen 4 times in 7 games.

Do not expect your defensemen to never make a mistake while you sit back on a one goal lead. It's not gonna happen often enough. There are no defensemen that good.

That game wasn't over either after that mistake. But sure enough that third man coming into the zone was open over and over again until the end because Dallas stopped covering.

[SaintAngerBH]

I'm certainly not wishing death on him. But, I do think Suter should have cut off the pass. Sure, mistakes happen. But, that's a pretty big one with 2 minutes to go.

[SaintAngerBH]

At least, the goal remains the same: the Stars need to win once in Vegas...

Too bad they Hurricaned it. They had better looks than in game #1, that Vegas team was beatable today. I didn't like how they constantly skated back everytime the Knights attacked and giving them too much space. And if it was Lundkvist who have had that brain fart, he would have been sent to the minors for the next eight years.

Haha. That's a good way to look at it. We only have to win one road game if we can win all our home games...

[The Frugal Gourmet]

If the series is 2-1 we have them right where we want them eh?

[ToddM]

I'm actually fine with the OT loss. Decades of watching playoff hockey has led me to believe that playoff OT is literally a coin flip with no actual significance whatsoever on which team is "better". In 1999 we dominated the *poo poo* out of Buffalo in that final game in OT and were basically paying rent in the offensive zone but it still took an iffy goal to get us the win, and just as easily could've bounced off Matvichuk and past Belfour for the loss.

So far both games have been coin flips, and both on the road where Cassidy can put his Eichel line up against Lindell or Miller instead of Heiskanen. Note how few of Eichel's plays come with Heiskanen on the ice. Now that the next two games are in Dallas DeBoer gets to dictate who's on the ice for what matchup (he claims he rolls 4 lines but.. c'mon).

I mean, last game Hill fucked up a long prayer shot bomb and Dadanov was like two inches from scoring the 4th goals with a minute left. And then Oettinger flips the puck into his own net in OT on a play that wasn't even a scoring chance. This game, Wyatt was stoned, then Miller fell down after a line change and they win. Hell, even Stone's goal on the 5-on-3 was 99% luck; that deflection off of Lindell's skate went RIGHT TO THE TAPE ON HIS STICK and in.

We're 0-2, sure, but it's not like we don't belong in the top 4. A little puck luck and some better matchups and one fewer Suter fuckup and this is an entirely new series.

[ToddM]

[slaps]

@ Frugal: every team makes mistakes. Suter’s was egregiously bad. And teams can do what they can to minimize mistakes, which could include buying out Suter so he’s not out there making those mistakes.

[The Frugal Gourmet]

@ Frugal: every team makes mistakes. Suter’s was egregiously bad. And teams can do what they can to minimize mistakes, which could include buying out Suter so he’s not out there making those mistakes.

I am open to improving any position. But benching the second best playoff defenseman without a better player is just emotions talking.

To me it looked just like a play that happened 5 other times in the game and this time a perfect pass and finish were executed. Usually they miss the timing and it sails through the other side.

The Stars defense is under immense pressure because the forwards don't cover very well and it was the only costly 5 on 5 mistake in an entire 60 minutes.

Good luck finding a defense that makes fewer "egregious" mistakes against a top 3 nhl team.

They are unlikely to get a better defensive performance than that against a team of this caliber. And you're not gonna find many teams that can.

Also I have to laugh that it was especially "egregious". Seattle made about 15 mistakes like that a game.

Sure. Get better. Try to make fewer mistakes. But .. come on. Every hockey game is decided by a mistake like that.
..


This is also a reoccurring pattern I noticed. One loss it's Hakenpaas fault and he was horrid. Then it's Lindell. Then Heiskanen let a guy burn him. I’m fact Heiskanen let an entire body go by him last game and not just a puck. Letting a fourth liner turn on the jets and
burn Hesikanen actually seemed like a more egregious mistake if I’m honest.

Maybe defense is hard and players making horrible mistakes actually isn't all that uncommon. Maybe you try to score a few goals because making a few horrible mistakes is just gonna happen.

[Math]

To remain on the positive side, The Devils blew their first two games 5-1 against NY and most people thought we would be swept. Benn is mostly invisible, Marchment is useless, we were globally outplayed in the overall two games, but it still went both in OT. If we win game #3, not only we will be "right where we want to be" at 2-1, but we would have won the last game and have momentum, so it's even better lol. Won the next two at home and we have a series.

About Suter, I guess we would be more tolerant if Harley or Hanley had made that mistake. But #20 is our lovely whipping boy (for a reason...) and what stings is that it came from the most experienced Dman of this series on a routine play with two minutes remaining: all aggravating factors. It won't be solved this season but this is highlighting the blatant hole the Stars have on the defense: the lack on another top-3 playmaker mobile Dman to put on the second PP unit and unload a bit Heiskanen because we can't use him 28-30 minutes all the time. Harley can be that guy but we're still hoping on that and getting that profile in free agency by overpaying some vet isn't a viable solution longterm. So I guess we're stuck in hoping Harley would be the guy...

[Troy McClure]

The Suter hatred has been going all season because he was pretty bad in the regular season with tons of irrational hatred of him blaming him for Lundkvist failing to develop.

I don't like Suter, but he has been much better in the playoffs than in the regular season. A lot of that comes from him being a very dirty piece of *poo poo* who gets away with being dirty in the playoffs because refs let grizzled vets do almost whatever they want.

The thing these playoffs have exposed is how Miller and Hakanpaa are not good playoff defenders. Those two are responsible for far more mistakes than Suter. Earlier in the season I'd have said buying out Suter was the best option to freeing up a roster spot, but now I'm thinking I'd rather send both Miller and Hakanpaa.

[The Frugal Gourmet]

The Suter hatred has been going all season because he was pretty bad in the regular season with tons of irrational hatred of him blaming him for Lundkvist failing to develop.

I don't like Suter, but he has been much better in the playoffs than in the regular season. A lot of that comes from him being a very dirty piece of *poo poo* who gets away with being dirty in the playoffs because refs let grizzled vets do almost whatever they want.

The thing these playoffs have exposed is how Miller and Hakanpaa are not good playoff defenders. Those two are responsible for far more mistakes than Suter. Earlier in the season I'd have said buying out Suter was the best option to freeing up a roster spot, but now I'm thinking I'd rather send both Miller and Hakanpaa.

I actually don’t like Suter and would be more than happy to upgrade him if they’re a chance.

I think we just need to can the exaggerated talk here. There are not as many defensemen who can stop Vegas as you think.

Also see in the clip above the forward is nowhere close to tracking his man back in the zone. That happens. It’s hard. But watch how much better Vegas is at doing it. That third guy is way more likely to be open against us.

We are putting a lot of pressure on a defense with one great player. It’s very unlikely they’re up to that task. And there are not too many defenses that are.

[Jason]

Hakanpaa is better than Miller defensively, both are free agents after next season. Miller definitely needs to go, Hakanpaa can be useful next season pair him with Harley. There's just not many options available to upgrade the defense, all will be options who are going to be very overpaid.

Matt Dumba is probably the best right shot defenseman available, but he's not the same player anymore. He was good in the playoffs in his contract year, but he injured his shoulder 4 years ago in a fight with Tkachuk and doesn't provide the same impact offensively anymore. He takes himself out of position going for big hits, takes a lot of very bad penalties too. Also injuries himself fighting or going for hits against bigger players.

[slaps]

@ Frugal: every team makes mistakes. Suter’s was egregiously bad. And teams can do what they can to minimize mistakes, which could include buying out Suter so he’s not out there making those mistakes.

I am open to improving any position. But benching the second best playoff defenseman without a better player is just emotions talking.

To me it looked just like a play that happened 5 other times in the game and this time a perfect pass and finish were executed. Usually they miss the timing and it sails through the other side.

The Stars defense is under immense pressure because the forwards don't cover very well and it was the only costly 5 on 5 mistake in an entire 60 minutes.

Good luck finding a defense that makes fewer "egregious" mistakes against a top 3 nhl team.

They are unlikely to get a better defensive performance than that against a team of this caliber. And you're not gonna find many teams that can.

Also I have to laugh that it was especially "egregious". Seattle made about 15 mistakes like that a game.

Sure. Get better. Try to make fewer mistakes. But .. come on. Every hockey game is decided by a mistake like that.
..


This is also a reoccurring pattern I noticed. One loss it's Hakenpaas fault and he was horrid. Then it's Lindell. Then Heiskanen let a guy burn him. I’m fact Heiskanen let an entire body go by him last game and not just a puck. Letting a fourth liner turn on the jets and
burn Hesikanen actually seemed like a more egregious mistake if I’m honest.

Maybe defense is hard and players making horrible mistakes actually isn't all that uncommon. Maybe you try to score a few goals because making a few horrible mistakes is just gonna happen.

Heiskanen makes those mistakes very infrequently. Suter makes them routinely, he just hasn’t quite as badly this playoff series. Call it Kari Lehtonen Syndrome - it’s also a factor of when he made the mistake.

And he’s not playing 20 minutes because he deserves to. He’s playing 20 minutes because who else are they going to play, despite having a quick puck-moving defenseman that they spent a first round pick for just sitting around.

[Troy McClure]

There's a pretty decent chance we're going to look back on the Lundkvist deal as a total mistake.

[slaps]

Especially when the player selected at the Stars’ pick turns into an elite puck-moving defenseman.

[Troy McClure]

It’s pretty shocking how Ludkvist hit the ice and played pretty ok for a couple of weeks, but then once teams figured out he’d wilt under pressure, it became depressing to watch. I wonder what Nill thinks he still has there. When he looks at what he wants on D next season, does he expect Lundkvist to be an every game player?

[Archangel972]

Re: Lundkvist

If I remember reading correctly, the NY Rangers wanted to send Lundkvist down to the AHL but he hated the idea and demanded a trade. Meanwhile Harley was told he wouldn't make the team after training camp and would have to relearn defensive fundamentals in Austin. Harley accepted it whole heartedly and has come back a much better player.

I wonder what Lundkvist thinks about Harley's story, I believe Saad mentioned that the Stars were still believers in Lundkvist (they damn well better be after spending a 1st round pick on him).

[B Kat]

Generally I agree, defensive mistakes happen frequently. However, with 2 minutes to go and a lead, that Suter play is unacceptable. Do I hate Suter, no? He's been very good these playoffs and even in this game (2 assists). The whole team needs to play better defensively. They are being outworked by Vegas, just like they were outworked by Seattle. The Stars had lots of chances to get to 3-1, but they didn't battle hard enough. Hill wasn't taxed much at all.

None the less, both teams looked a little fatigued and since the Stars ain't out yet there's still hope, albeit very little.

RE: Lundqvist, I think he will be OK. He wasn't handled properly, he should have been allowed to play thru some of those mistakes in the regular season 'cuz he is now not an option at all in the post season.

[wonko80]

Lundqvist is at the stage where he's scared to make any decision, so consequently he always makes the wrong one because it's too late. And then he gets benched which does not help at all.

[The Frugal Gourmet]

It’s pretty shocking how Ludkvist hit the ice and played pretty ok for a couple of weeks, but then once teams figured out he’d wilt under pressure, it became depressing to watch. I wonder what Nill thinks he still has there. When he looks at what he wants on D next season, does he expect Lundkvist to be an every game player?

I actually can't even remember he played so little.

The Stars were actually more dynamic early in the season but that probably had nothing to do with him.

[Troy McClure]

Lundqvist is at the stage where he's scared to make any decision, so consequently he always makes the wrong one because it's too late. And then he gets benched which does not help at all.

And unfortunately for him (not for us), he ended up on a team that quickly started winning and changed expectations to the point where they wouldn't let him fight through it. Maybe a fresh start next season will help, but he's not exactly had any opportunities to improve through experience. Despite what GMs say to placate fans, players don't get better by sitting in the press box.

[The Frugal Gourmet]

Lundqvist is at the stage where he's scared to make any decision, so consequently he always makes the wrong one because it's too late. And then he gets benched which does not help at all.

And unfortunately for him (not for us), he ended up on a team that quickly started winning and changed expectations to the point where they wouldn't let him fight through it. Maybe a fresh start next season will help, but he's not exactly had any opportunities to improve through experience. Despite what GMs say to placate fans, players don't get better by sitting in the press box.

I think that is the main problem.

All of a sudden we were good and so we wanted to stay on top of the division. There was no leeway.

There's also that confidence spiral where you know you'll
be benched for a single mistake and so you play completely in your head.