2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

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Troy McClure
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Fri May 01, 2020 12:44 pm

cdanew wrote:
slaps wrote:
Math wrote:Plante, Dryden, Worsley, Tretiak, Fuhr were considered absolutely dominant in their respective eras. I'm wondering how would they perform in today's game and at which point their role would be important in the team.

Fuhr's best save percentage in a season was .903%. That's abysmal. I realize goaltending wasn't a thing, but I don't think the older goalies would be anywhere near as dominant today.

I had this discussion with the boys the other night. I think if you took Ed Belfour (or Patrick Roy, etc.) and had them come up in today's game, learning the style of play today, that most of the "greats" would still be great. Maybe not so much from the 40s/50s, but I think the talented goalies from the 80s/90s could easily translate if they had learned today's style of play. The biggest challenge would be their size - a lot of those guys were 6' to 6'2". Ken Dryden was pretty big at 6'4", but he was an outlier.

For the skaters of the past, I'm pretty on board with the idea that having them fully formed today with the training, nutrition, and equipment would still see them being great players, but I'm not so sure what to do with goalies from the pre-butterfly era since that position is so different. It's a different kind of flexibility and thinking of how to play versus pure reflexes combined with bravery/stupidity. The skill set for what made a guy good at one type of goaltending isn't directly translatable to what makes a modern goalie good.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Fri May 01, 2020 12:56 pm

And Chuck Norris way above 1.000

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby 5minmajor » Fri May 01, 2020 3:00 pm

ToddM wrote:Bishop would've had like a .970 save percentage if he'd played in the 70s.

Not with ‘70s pads he wouldn’t.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Mon May 04, 2020 12:15 am

I thought goaltending had been invented by 1999? Belfour sure seems to give up a lot of Kari goals, and these are only the games we win. I can only imagine how the losses looked.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Mon May 04, 2020 1:11 am

Balfour was considered one of the better goalies of his day when it came to positioning, so keep that in mind when you watch him play and compare him to guys today.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Mon May 04, 2020 1:32 am

Troy McClure wrote:Balfour was considered one of the better goalies of his day when it came to positioning, so keep that in mind when you watch him play and compare him to guys today.

Sure, he’s in position most of the time, but that doesn’t seem to stop wrist shots from Scott Young from the top of the circle from going in through the five hole. Andrew Raycroft wouldn’t have given up some of these goals.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed May 06, 2020 7:30 pm

WCF game six is on now. My first dive back in to this run. The low def picture is so shocking. Was it really this fuzzy? Did the rum and coke clear up the picture?

I’m enjoying Thorne and Clement essentially considering this a done deal for the Avs.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed May 06, 2020 7:35 pm

*poo poo*. They switched to the Canadian broadcast for some reason, and the picture is as bad as footage of games from the 50s. The picture is so washed out the lines are barely visible on the ice.

I think the problem has to be how they recorded these games. It’s like they are using 20 year old VHS tapes they stored in the garage.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed May 06, 2020 10:13 pm

Ok, Mike Keane's second goal in game seven still gives me sports feelings. *fargin'* awesome.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Wed May 06, 2020 10:34 pm

Gary Thorne really was great. Clement always kinda annoyed me some.

And yeah, Keane's second goal is one that I've always remembered more than many others.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Thu May 07, 2020 8:07 pm

In Shapiro's mailbag this week he covered the idea of a Klingberg for William Nylander trade. Have we covered this idea before? It actually seems plausible for Toronto in that they need cap space and he is the most expendable/tradeable compared to Matthews, Marner, or Tavares.

Klingberg is 28, so he is probably past his prime. His game Is think would age better than others since it was never based on speed. Still, the Stars have no offensive forwards in the pipeline anywhere close to Nylander. Yet they do have some more like Klingberg.

I'd probably do it but I'm actually a bit on the fence in this one compared with other Stars players that I feel are overvalued.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 07, 2020 8:17 pm

I'm torn because I know what Klingberg brings. Even with his dip in production the last couple of seasons, he's still the best weapon they have on the blue line. Heiskanen still hasn't shown he can run a PP and put up big points. Harley is still an unknown. No one else on the team or on the farm is exciting.

But Christ they do need forward help as well because there may not be any in the system.

But they already have a billion dollars tied up in forwards.

But I don't know.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Thu May 07, 2020 8:30 pm

From the clips I saw of Harley on the Athletic series, he's a playmaker in the offensive zone. Miro could be if he was free to roam or coached to be more risky.

It would really be amazing (and impossible) if they could get Marner. That dude is a playmaker, which is what this team really seems to need.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu May 07, 2020 10:31 pm

Klingberg has the best contract in the NHL. Even if he’s not what he was, it would be imprudent to trade him. His sweetheart deal recoups some of the cap value that you wasted overpaying 14 and 91. Not saying he’s untouchable, but you shouldn’t trade him for a guy who has only had one really strong season. Unless you’re declaring the window closed for this iteration of the Stars, in which case you should go all in and blow the whole thing up.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ToddM » Thu May 07, 2020 11:01 pm

Yeah, even Nylander at his peak is not as valuable as Klingberg is right now: even as a forward, I'd wager he barely outscores Klingberg (I'm not going to look that up). Add in Klingz' contract, and it's a no-brainer.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 07, 2020 11:33 pm

ToddM wrote:Yeah, even Nylander at his peak is not as valuable as Klingberg is right now: even as a forward, I'd wager he barely outscores Klingberg (I'm not going to look that up). Add in Klingz' contract, and it's a no-brainer.

For the sake of looking at Klingberg's game, here's his points per 60 by season:
14-15 1.27
15-16 1.27
16-17 1.00
17-18 1.47 (3rd in the NHL among full time d-men)
18-19 0.91 (68th in the NHL among full time d-men)
19-20 0.75 (110th in the NHL among full time d-men)

Nylander's are higher, but of course he benefits from being a forward and from being a forward on a team like the Leafs where he gets to play with Matthews and Marner.
16-17 1.77
17-18 2.38
18-19 1.78
19-20 2.31

Nylander's numbers aren't spectacular compared to the league leaders (#44), but for some perspective, the Stars leader this season is Tyler Seguin with 1.50 points per 60. Ouch.

But with Klingberg's role, his points production is dependent on his forwards scoring goals, and his forwards are not getting it done.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Fri May 08, 2020 12:05 am

Also, Klingberg is going to get overpaid in a couple years, whereas you’ve got cost certainty with Nylander for a while. And we all know Nill can’t stop himself from overpaying out of loyalty.

Klingberg’s game is going to decline starting around now, but Nylander’s is going to increase. And consistent 20+ goals, 60-point forwards are valuable.

So long as Bowness the Dinosaur is gone. Otherwise, it’s a mute point.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Fri May 08, 2020 12:24 am

Klingberg has also been injured off and on the past two seasons which probably hampered his production. I don’t think he’s quite washed up yet. And 110th in the league still makes him a top 4 defenseman.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby B Kat » Fri May 08, 2020 7:25 am

Klingberg is obviously not expendable, because the strength of our team is that we have two great puck moving D-men. But you gotta give to get, so he’s a candidate in my eyes to improve the forward group. But for the record, I think Harley has flaws. We’ll see how he looks this next season. And without being able to move at least one of the two big name albatross contracts, best to stick with great defense.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Fri May 08, 2020 10:02 am

All valid points there, so many parameters, lots of pros and cons... #3 has had a bad season so far but any team would have a guy like him anytime. His bargain contract is a key argument though, but yes he will be overpaid in his next contract. About Heiskanen, he's still young and there's a lot of room for improvement. D-men tend to reach their maturity later than forwards.

Who knows, with another coach, another message, maybe those two can flourish and play with more freedom.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Fri May 08, 2020 10:14 am

I don't watch any Toronto hockey really, so I don't know much about Nylander outside of his holdout that happened. He may not be the catalyst needed, but to me it was an interesting thought experiment. I'm still on the fence about it just based upon the given stats by Troy... I mean, chances of Klingberg getting better (returning to form of 2-3 years ago) doesn't seem likely. However, his game should age well, so perhaps he can continue to flourish for the next 5 years. But how much does he expect to get paid for that? Or does he want a 6+ year contract or something?

Are there other players who could be a target on some other team for a Klingberg deal? He is easily the highest valued trade piece we have (outside of Miro) because of his deal. But if you wait even one more year, then that value is gone. So if you were going to do something now is the time.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Fri May 08, 2020 10:23 am

Coaching probably has something to do with it, too. Klingberg's alleged decline coincides with Monty's arrival and our transition from Lindyball to Triple Hitchball.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Fri May 08, 2020 10:25 am

True, and same can go for Seguin and Benn as well.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Fri May 08, 2020 10:27 am

Also, if you are still clinging to hope that this group has a chance of ever winning, the window is Miro's ELC. Once you're paying Miro $8M/year, you're out of money with like $30 million going to 14, 91, and 4 and the cap likely staying flat or even going down. You're now the Blackhawks, but without three Cups. So this season and next season are your only chances. That's probably the end of Bishop's window as an elite player too.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Fri May 08, 2020 10:47 am

I dislike party poopers like you. Especially when you're right.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Fri May 08, 2020 11:04 am

This is the most I’ve thought about hockey in two months.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Fri May 08, 2020 11:30 am

ScubaSteve wrote:Also, if you are still clinging to hope that this group has a chance of ever winning, the window is Miro's ELC. Once you're paying Miro $8M/year, you're out of money with like $30 million going to 14, 91, and 4 and the cap likely staying flat or even going down. You're now the Blackhawks, but without three Cups. So this season and next season are your only chances. That's probably the end of Bishop's window as an elite player too.

That's what makes this restarted playoff run so interesting. Heading into the season shutdown, the Stars were in a major tailspin. They looked like *poo poo* and were losing a lot.

If they come out of this break and make a deep run, maybe they feel like they should keep this thing together for another couple of seasons. But if they instead get bounced early, maybe they start looking to these kinds of bigger moves like trading Klingberg to a real contender for younger help, selling Radulov as a rental, or trying to get out of one of these massive contracts to Benn or Seguin. Last summer was a doubling down on the current construction, so this playoff run should tell us whether that plan is worth sticking with.

Of course, the worry I have is no lessons will be taken from this season because of the dual excuses of Monty getting fired and the season being interrupted by a pandemic. Even if they get swept in the first round, I worry the front office will ignore it and change little because excuses.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Fri May 08, 2020 11:35 am

wonko80 wrote:Are there other players who could be a target on some other team for a Klingberg deal? He is easily the highest valued trade piece we have (outside of Miro) because of his deal. But if you wait even one more year, then that value is gone. So if you were going to do something now is the time.

If the pandemic causes the cap to go down, there will be a few teams needing to move money. Klingberg's awesome contact could land you someone better than Nylander, but the problem the Stars then face is having their own cap crunch going forward.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Fri May 08, 2020 12:06 pm

Klingberg’s deal is also higher actual cash in the later years than the cap hit. Given the financial crunch, I could see them operating like an Arizona or someone where they target contracts with high cap hits but low actual salary to save cash. But that won’t help the on ice product.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Fri May 08, 2020 12:10 pm

That's why it's a perfect contract for a team like the Leafs, who couldn't care less about actual cash spent, but for whom having a low cap hit is exceedingly valuable.
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