2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:12 am

SaintAngerBH wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

The Stars outscored the Sabres 13-9 in the Final series with Derian Hatcher scoring an empty-net goal to finish Game 2.

Modano assisted on seven of the 12 goals Dominik Hasek allowed and, after suffering a cracked bone in his left wrist in Game 2, assisted on the last five goals the Stars scored in the final three games.

44:00 mark:



Jere Lehtinen's five points made him the only other player in the series who scored more than three.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/1999-buffalo-sabres-vs-dallas-stars-stanley-cup-final.html

That doesn't refute Scuba's point. Scuba is referring to talent and long-term ranking.

For certain, Zubov and Hull were far more talented than Modano. You could argue Belfour as well. I would put Lehtinen ahead of Modano just because of his work ethic and attitude. Nieuwendyk and Modano are about equal. That puts Modano at about 5th best.

You managed to refute it simply by agreeing with it.


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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:44 am

So what you're saying is Modano leeched off the offensive talent of Derian Hatcher.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:56 am

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
SaintAngerBH wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

The Stars outscored the Sabres 13-9 in the Final series with Derian Hatcher scoring an empty-net goal to finish Game 2.

Modano assisted on seven of the 12 goals Dominik Hasek allowed and, after suffering a cracked bone in his left wrist in Game 2, assisted on the last five goals the Stars scored in the final three games.

44:00 mark:



Jere Lehtinen's five points made him the only other player in the series who scored more than three.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/1999-buffalo-sabres-vs-dallas-stars-stanley-cup-final.html

That doesn't refute Scuba's point. Scuba is referring to talent and long-term ranking.

For certain, Zubov and Hull were far more talented than Modano. You could argue Belfour as well. I would put Lehtinen ahead of Modano just because of his work ethic and attitude. Nieuwendyk and Modano are about equal. That puts Modano at about 5th best.

You managed to refute it simply by agreeing with it.



If you want to believe that, okay. That doesn't make it true.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:06 am

BTW:

Brett Hull: 741 goals, 650 assists in 1269 games good for 1.10 points per game
Sergei Zubov: 152 goals, 771 assists in 1068 games good for 0.864 points per game as a defenseman
Joe Nieuwendyk: 564 goals, 562 assists in 1257 games good for 0.896 points per game
Mike Modano: 561 goals, 813 assists in 1499 games good for 0.917 points per game

Modano was only marginally better than Nieuwendyk, so at best he was 3rd on that team in talent if you exclude Belfour because he is a goalie and Lehtinen because his intangibles and Selkes are hard to compare.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby B Kat » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:13 am

Bob’s barking at a parked car. The car isn’t gonna move.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby BigAl » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:19 am

Highest scoring American... other than Brett Hull, who is also American.
Could of.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:53 am

B Kat wrote:Bob’s barking at a parked car. The car isn’t gonna move.


Image
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ToddM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:28 am

The only real knock against Newy is that his favorite band is Nickelback.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:26 pm

Unpopular opinion: Nickelback is fine. They made generic radio-friendly medium rock music. It's neither good nor bad, it's just there. They get *poo poo* on because it's generic, but they aren't actively bad like some of Mookie's cow-trance whisperer music.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:33 pm

slaps wrote:Unpopular opinion: Nickelback is fine. They made generic radio-friendly medium rock music. It's neither good nor bad, it's just there. They get *poo poo* on because it's generic, but they aren't actively bad like some of Mookie's cow-trance whisperer music.


I agree. But I will never admit this in real life.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:28 pm

I'd rather listen to Nickelback on repeat than 5 minutes of Mookie's whale-fucker music.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:28 pm

Also:

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:31 pm

slaps wrote:Also:


Looks like the backstabbing has begun.
I got a ranch in downtown Dallas/I buy diamonds by the ton/Chase cuties in my Cadillac/Drill oil wells just for fun/But when it comes to boots, I need a deal/That will fit me right, toe to heel/So I get my boots at Western Warehouse.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby BigAl » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:40 pm

As a low level coach Monty can only do 1d6+2 of back stab damage.
Could of.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:40 pm

I wonder if he's making Nelson listen to Nickelback as punishment.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby wonko80 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:50 pm

Nah, he's just making him watch Stars games.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:22 pm

Slaps has upvoted BKat.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:40 pm

This is Nill's fifth consecutive season of having the Stars in the predicament of having both of his goalies be guys on expensive veteran contracts paying for UFA years.

The last time a guy drafted by the Stars started a game for the Stars was the 2013-14 season when Jack Campbell started one game in October of that season on something of an emergency basis (I don't really count Ellis's starts from that season because he was brought back in as a 33 year old vet after bouncing around the league for a while). The last Stars drafted goalie to spend any decent amount of time on the roster was when Richard Bachman served as a backup in 2012-2013. Since those years, the Stars have drafted several more goalies with decent picks, but none have started an NHL game.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:54 pm

Bow has played, right? Was it relief or did he start?
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby cdanew » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:06 pm

Troy McClure wrote:This is Nill's fifth consecutive season of having the Stars in the predicament of having both of his goalies be guys on expensive veteran contracts paying for UFA years.


Honestly, I woudn't characterize both contracts as expensive. Bishop's cap hit is $4.9m; Dobby's is $2.5m, for a combined $7.4m. That's not an unreasonable amount to pay a goaltending tandem - particularly with the overall quality those two have shown over the past season and change.

Some other teams (combined):
Boston - $9.75m
Toronto - $5.7m
Calgary - $5.5m
San Jose - $7.65m
St. Louis - $8.75m
Edmonton - $6.5m
Chicago - $11m
Washington - $7m
Minnesota - $5.1m
Anaheim - $7.5m

Now your point about not developing a young goalie in a long time is valid. I think Oettinger has a chance to be a quality NHL goalie, but only time will tell.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby B Kat » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:28 pm

slaps wrote:Bow has played, right? Was it relief or did he start?

I don't believe that Bow was drafted. He is being developed, though, hopefully.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:39 pm

B Kat wrote:
slaps wrote:Bow has played, right? Was it relief or did he start?

I don't believe that Bow was drafted. He is being developed, though, hopefully.



He wasn’t drafted, but he wasn’t a trade - the Stars signed him.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:26 pm

I haven’t heard a peep about Bow, Point, or Oettinger since they were drafted. I know goalies develop slowly, but if any of those guys have a future as an NHL backup who could save us $2 million for a couple years, I think we’d know it by now.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby slaps » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:34 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:I haven’t heard a peep about Bow...since...drafted


About that....
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ToddM » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:56 pm

Oettinger and Point were college guys, so it's natural that they wouldn't be in the NHL this early. So far Oettinger looks pretty good in the AHL.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:48 am

cdanew wrote:
Troy McClure wrote:This is Nill's fifth consecutive season of having the Stars in the predicament of having both of his goalies be guys on expensive veteran contracts paying for UFA years.


Honestly, I woudn't characterize both contracts as expensive. Bishop's cap hit is $4.9m; Dobby's is $2.5m, for a combined $7.4m. That's not an unreasonable amount to pay a goaltending tandem - particularly with the overall quality those two have shown over the past season and change.

Some other teams (combined):
Boston - $9.75m
Toronto - $5.7m
Calgary - $5.5m
San Jose - $7.65m
St. Louis - $8.75m
Edmonton - $6.5m
Chicago - $11m
Washington - $7m
Minnesota - $5.1m
Anaheim - $7.5m

Now your point about not developing a young goalie in a long time is valid. I think Oettinger has a chance to be a quality NHL goalie, but only time will tell.

Things are much cheaper now than the Kari-Niemi or Bishop-Kari seasons, but I kinda wish the Stars could have taken advantage of Bishop's nice deal to put that cap savings to work towards other needs. Instead, they are still spending among the top third of the league for goalies. I'm not complaining too much because Khudobin is by far the best backup goalie the Stars have had in the Nill era.

But yeah, I decided to poke around their recent goalie history after seeing a few teams throw their young backups at the Stars with some good success.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:50 am

ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

SaintAngerBH wrote:BTW:

Brett Hull: 741 goals, 650 assists in 1269 games good for 1.10 points per game
Sergei Zubov: 152 goals, 771 assists in 1068 games good for 0.864 points per game as a defenseman
Joe Nieuwendyk: 564 goals, 562 assists in 1257 games good for 0.896 points per game
Mike Modano: 561 goals, 813 assists in 1499 games good for 0.917 points per game

Modano was only marginally better than Nieuwendyk, so at best he was 3rd on that team in talent if you exclude Belfour because he is a goalie and Lehtinen because his intangibles and Selkes are hard to compare.

Their three seasons as teammates with the Stars in the 1999, 2000 and 2001 playoffs:

Mike Modano: 55 games, 18 goals, 35 assists, 53 points, 0.964 points per game
Brett Hull: 55 games, 21 goals, 25 assists, 46 points, 0.836 points per game
Joe Nieuwendyk: 53 games, 22 goals, 13 assists, 35 points, 0.66 points per game
Sergei Zubov: 51 games, 4 goals, 24 assists, 28 points, 0.549 points per game
Jere Lehtinen: 46 games, 12 goals, 8 assists, 20 points, 0.435 points per game

During those playoffs the Stars lost the only games Modano (2-1 loss in Game 2 of the second round against the Blues in 2001) and Hull (2-1 loss in Game 4 of the 1999 Final in Buffalo) missed due to injury, won two of the three games Nieuwendyk missed (3-2 overtime win in Game 3, 2-1 overtime loss in Game 4 and 4-3 overtime win in Game 5 of the first round against the Oilers in 2001), beat the Oilers four games to one in the first round in 2000 when Zubov and Lehtinen didn't play in the series, and beat the Sharks four games to one in the next round when Lehtinen didn't play in the series.

The Stars lost Game 7 of their 2007 first round series (4-1 with two, late empty-net goals) in Vancouver without Zubov but beat the defending Stanley Cup Champion Anaheim Ducks in six games in the first round of the 2008 playoffs and won the first game of their next series in San Jose without him, making them 9-4 in the playoffs when he didn't play.

With two of the nine goals the defending Stanley Cup Champion Stars scored against the Devils in the 2000 Final occurring when trailing 7-1 in the third period of Game 1, they were eliminated in double overtime of Game 6 of a series in which Modano (Game 5's only goal in triple overtime, three assists, even plus/minus) and Hull (both goals in Game 2's 2-1 win, two assists, minus-2) each scored four points, Lehtinen scored three points (all assists, plus-1), Nieuwendyk scored one goal, had no assists and was minus-4, and Zubov scored no points and was minus-5.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/2000-dallas-stars-vs-new-jersey-devils-stanley-cup-final.html

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:06 am

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

SaintAngerBH wrote:BTW:

Brett Hull: 741 goals, 650 assists in 1269 games good for 1.10 points per game
Sergei Zubov: 152 goals, 771 assists in 1068 games good for 0.864 points per game as a defenseman
Joe Nieuwendyk: 564 goals, 562 assists in 1257 games good for 0.896 points per game
Mike Modano: 561 goals, 813 assists in 1499 games good for 0.917 points per game

Modano was only marginally better than Nieuwendyk, so at best he was 3rd on that team in talent if you exclude Belfour because he is a goalie and Lehtinen because his intangibles and Selkes are hard to compare.

Their three seasons as teammates with the Stars in the 1999, 2000 and 2001 playoffs:

Mike Modano: 55 games, 18 goals, 35 assists, 53 points, 0.964 points per game
Brett Hull: 55 games, 21 goals, 25 assists, 46 points, 0.836 points per game
Joe Nieuwendyk: 53 games, 22 goals, 13 assists, 35 points, 0.66 points per game
Sergei Zubov: 51 games, 4 goals, 24 assists, 28 points, 0.549 points per game
Jere Lehtinen: 46 games, 12 goals, 8 assists, 20 points, 0.435 points per game

During those playoffs the Stars lost the only games Modano (2-1 loss in Game 2 of the second round against the Blues in 2001) and Hull (2-1 loss in Game 4 of the 1999 Final in Buffalo) missed due to injury, won two of the three games Nieuwendyk missed (3-2 overtime win in Game 3, 2-1 overtime loss in Game 4 and 4-3 overtime win in Game 5 of the first round against the Oilers in 2001), beat the Oilers four games to one in the first round in 2000 when Zubov and Lehtinen didn't play in the series, and beat the Sharks four games to one in the next round when Lehtinen didn't play in the series.

The Stars lost Game 7 of their 2007 first round series (4-1 with two, late empty-net goals) in Vancouver without Zubov but beat the defending Stanley Cup Champion Anaheim Ducks in six games in the first round of the 2008 playoffs and won the first game of their next series in San Jose without him, making them 9-4 in the playoffs when he didn't play.

With two of the nine goals the defending Stanley Cup Champion Stars scored against the Devils in the 2000 Final occurring when trailing 7-1 in the third period of Game 1, they were eliminated in double overtime of Game 6 of a series in which Modano (Game 5's only goal in triple overtime, three assists, even plus/minus) and Hull (both goals in Game 2's 2-1 win, two assists, minus-2) each scored four points, Lehtinen scored three points (all assists, plus-1), Nieuwendyk scored one goal, had no assists and was minus-4, and Zubov scored no points and was minus-5.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/2000-dallas-stars-vs-new-jersey-devils-stanley-cup-final.html


So, basically, you're overtly cherry picking your data. You're using a sample (a 3 season window) to estimate population (entire career) parameters while I am using the actual population parameters to show that your small sample size (3 season window) doesn't represent the population (entire career) very well.

Then, you spewed out a bunch of anecdotal, individual cases that do not in any way refute what Scuba or I said about Modano.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:50 pm

Image

Found this image on the main site. Part of the winter classic jersey?
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:54 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Found this image on the main site. Part of the winter classic jersey?


Seems to be the patch on the arms, with large numbers probably on the shoulders. We will have the answer in four days.

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