2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

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Math
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:02 am

slaps wrote:Also, the graphic he refers to:



That’s, uh, bad.


Interesting. If this pinpoints the dramatic, hence unexplainable collapse of the top-6 offensive production, it's also about the bottom-6 contribution.

The Stars used to have Shore, Eakin, Eaves, Spezza, Roussel as the agitator -- let's put Sharp at this point -- and those reached around 40 pts/season roughly. Today Faksa, Janmark, Dowling, Cogliano, Dickinson are not even close to reach this mark. Seems that all these former Stars haven't been replaced as well.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:05 am

I mean, at the end of the day, Lindyball, with Lehtonen in goal made it to the second round game 7. Hitch/Montyball got us to second round, game 7.

Let's try Lindyball with Bishop in net and see what happens, because I can't watch this team for much longer...
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:08 am

In the Jamie Benn chapter of Shapiro's book, it was suggested that #14 would probably be retired and hanging in the rafters of the AAC in the future; and that he could reach Modano for the franchise best scorer and counter.

Well...

Considering the current production by Benn, he's in pace for seven goals and 32 points at the end of the season. With the assumption that Benn's production average stays the same and put together with Modano's numbers, it would take 40 years for Benn to reach Modano's mark in points, which means at the end of the 2059-2060 season. Benn will be 70.

Things are much better for the goals: Modano should be passed by the 2042-2043 season, Benn being 53 that that time.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:25 am

mookie1010 wrote:I mean, at the end of the day, Lindyball, with Lehtonen in goal made it to the second round game 7. Hitch/Montyball got us to second round, game 7.

Let's try Lindyball with Bishop in net and see what happens, because I can't watch this team for much longer...


We don’t have the horses for Lindyball anymore. That system is a speed game, and our roster is slow. The solution was to acquire Bishop three years before we did, when it was obvious that we had a good team whose Achilles heel was goaltending. That window to win came and went.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:38 am

So I have to watch basketball instead? Cuz I really can't watch this *poo poo* anymore.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby BigAl » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:44 am

You can still watch. You just have to switch your allegiance to all the other teams.
Could of.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby B Kat » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:46 am

BigAl wrote:You can still watch. You just have to switch your allegiance to all the other teams.

Like Edmonton. :)

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:09 am

mookie1010 wrote:So I have to watch basketball instead? Cuz I really can't watch this *poo poo* anymore.


I suggest cricket, but you have to be severely drunk to enjoy this game and get the basic rule at its finest.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby cdanew » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:57 am

Math wrote:In the Jamie Benn chapter of Shapiro's book, it was suggested that #14 would probably be retired and hanging in the rafters of the AAC in the future; and that he could reach Modano for the franchise best scorer and counter.

Well...

Considering the current production by Benn, he's in pace for seven goals and 32 points at the end of the season. With the assumption that Benn's production average stays the same and put together with Modano's numbers, it would take 40 years for Benn to reach Modano's mark in points, which means at the end of the 2059-2060 season. Benn will be 70.

Things are much better for the goals: Modano should be passed by the 2042-2043 season, Benn being 53 that that time.


Yeah .... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:02 am

Math wrote:In the Jamie Benn chapter of Shapiro's book, it was suggested that #14 would probably be retired and hanging in the rafters of the AAC in the future; and that he could reach Modano for the franchise best scorer and counter.

Well...

Considering the current production by Benn, he's in pace for seven goals and 32 points at the end of the season. With the assumption that Benn's production average stays the same and put together with Modano's numbers, it would take 40 years for Benn to reach Modano's mark in points, which means at the end of the 2059-2060 season. Benn will be 70.

Things are much better for the goals: Modano should be passed by the 2042-2043 season, Benn being 53 that that time.

Benn will never touch Modano's career numbers, but Benn had a few seasons that were far better than any individual season Modano had when you talk about comparing production against their peers.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby cdanew » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:28 am

B Kat wrote:It would be reasonable to think a roster filled with fairly offensive players, Klingberg, Heiskenen, Seguin, Benn, Radulov and Pavelski could score more than 2 goals per game.


Current shooting percentages for certain players versus last year (nothing surprising here given what we've watched):

Seguin - 5.3 / 9.9
Klingberg - 3.1 / 6.5
Benn - 3.3 / 14.3
Radulov - 3.7 / 13.9
Faksa - 9.1 / 13.2

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:03 pm

If Benn wins no cups, Benn gets no jersey retirement. Neither does Seguin.

There is a reason Morrow's 10 has been worn 4 times since he left. No cups.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:35 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
Math wrote:In the Jamie Benn chapter of Shapiro's book, it was suggested that #14 would probably be retired and hanging in the rafters of the AAC in the future; and that he could reach Modano for the franchise best scorer and counter.

Well...

Considering the current production by Benn, he's in pace for seven goals and 32 points at the end of the season. With the assumption that Benn's production average stays the same and put together with Modano's numbers, it would take 40 years for Benn to reach Modano's mark in points, which means at the end of the 2059-2060 season. Benn will be 70.

Things are much better for the goals: Modano should be passed by the 2042-2043 season, Benn being 53 that that time.

Benn will never touch Modano's career numbers, but Benn had a few seasons that were far better than any individual season Modano had when you talk about comparing production against their peers.

Modano was the NHL's highest-scoring player in the 46 games he played in the 1999 and 2000 playoffs when he nearly led the Stars to back-to-back Stanley Cup Championships.

Benn's scoring title occurred during a season in which the team he led missed the playoffs because it couldn't keep the puck out of its own net.

The Stars should commemorate it on his banner when they retire his number 14.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:51 pm

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
Troy McClure wrote:
Math wrote:In the Jamie Benn chapter of Shapiro's book, it was suggested that #14 would probably be retired and hanging in the rafters of the AAC in the future; and that he could reach Modano for the franchise best scorer and counter.

Well...

Considering the current production by Benn, he's in pace for seven goals and 32 points at the end of the season. With the assumption that Benn's production average stays the same and put together with Modano's numbers, it would take 40 years for Benn to reach Modano's mark in points, which means at the end of the 2059-2060 season. Benn will be 70.

Things are much better for the goals: Modano should be passed by the 2042-2043 season, Benn being 53 that that time.

Benn will never touch Modano's career numbers, but Benn had a few seasons that were far better than any individual season Modano had when you talk about comparing production against their peers.

Modano was the NHL's highest-scoring player in the 46 games he played in the 1999 and 2000 playoffs when he nearly led the Stars to back-to-back Stanley Cup Championships.

Benn's scoring title occurred during a season in which the team he led missed the playoffs because it couldn't keep the puck out of its own net.

The Stars should commemorate it on his banner when they retire his number 14.


I'm calling it now. 14 will go into the rafters with the name BARNES over it.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:11 pm

Sure, if you find a way to count scoring in a way that ensures Modano has more games played than any competition other than teammates, he very well could be #1. But let's look at the full 82 game seasons where everyone gets an equal opportunity to produce. In those two full regular seasons, Modano finished 7th in total points (12th in points per game).

Yeah, the Stars wasted the best years of Benn and Seguin. I can't argue with that. But it doesn't change the fact both Benn and Seguin had better offensive seasons than Modano.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:20 pm

I definitely vote for #14 Todd Elik, though he played only for two years in the last two seasons in Minnesota. One of the craziest players that one would ever meet, the guy was really nuts. Extracts from an interview from one of his former mate when he joined the swiss league after his NHL days:

In 25 seasons in pro hockey, who was the craziest player you've been playing with ?
Todd Elik, by far. When you played with a guy who used to skate in circles all around the ice rink while fingering his own public, you've seen everything during your career.

The teammate that was the most intimidating ?
Todd Elik again. I was 17 when he arrived here from the NHL and I barely spoke english at that time. One day he asked me to carry his bag in the van but as I didn't understand, I didn't do it and he took that as a lack of respect. He took my skates, went to the bathroom and pooed into them. Not only was he nuts, but he was one of the most dangerous players on the ice and during training sessions.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:58 pm

Troy McClure wrote:Sure, if you find a way to count scoring in a way that ensures Modano has more games played than any competition other than teammates, he very well could be #1. But let's look at the full 82 game seasons where everyone gets an equal opportunity to produce. In those two full regular seasons, Modano finished 7th in total points (12th in points per game).

Yeah, the Stars wasted the best years of Benn and Seguin. I can't argue with that. But it doesn't change the fact both Benn and Seguin had better offensive seasons than Modano.


Yeah, and Seguin in 2013 would smoke Modano even from 1999.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:10 pm

Troy McClure wrote:Sure, if you find a way to count scoring in a way that ensures Modano has more games played than any competition other than teammates, he very well could be #1. But let's look at the full 82 game seasons where everyone gets an equal opportunity to produce. In those two full regular seasons, Modano finished 7th in total points (12th in points per game).

Yeah, the Stars wasted the best years of Benn and Seguin. I can't argue with that. But it doesn't change the fact both Benn and Seguin had better offensive seasons than Modano.

Grant Fuhr, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek and Martin Brodeur were the opposing goaltenders in 32 of the 46 playoff games Modano played in 1999 and 2000.

And his greatness as a player wasn't simply a result of the number of points he scored in a season.


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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 pm

Modano was never great outside of the late 90's. Before that, he was lazy, took games off (sound familiar?), and was horrible in the d-zone. Everyone commented on it from the Minnesota days and early Dallas days.

After the late 90's, Modano reverted back to this, perhaps because of advancing age instead of pure lack of effort but, nonetheless, he became a floater again. The only time Modano could even be considered "great" was when Hitchcock rode his ass and forced him to be.

That and his whiny, moaning attitude that permeated throughout the "country club" locker room of the Tippett era along with Ott, Turco, and company really soured me on him.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:47 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Modano was never great outside of the late 90's. Before that, he was lazy, took games off (sound familiar?), and was horrible in the d-zone. Everyone commented on it from the Minnesota days and early Dallas days.

After the late 90's, Modano reverted back to this, perhaps because of advancing age instead of pure lack of effort but, nonetheless, he became a floater again. The only time Modano could even be considered "great" was when Hitchcock rode his ass and forced him to be.

That and his whiny, moaning attitude that permeated throughout the "country club" locker room of the Tippett era along with Ott, Turco, and company really soured me on him.


I've always been intrigued by the fact despite being the US leader of all time and the supposed face of the franchise, Modano never had the unanimity towards fans, journalists and people gravitating around the team and league. In the Stars early days, it was more Churla, Hatcher, Tinordi, even Broten who were in the front-end of the team. Back in in 2010 when he made his retirement tour and skated with a North Stars jersey against the Wild, a lot of Minnesotans didn't stand up and cheered him even if the team moved 17 years ago, feelings remained pretty harsh not only due to the Stars' departure, but because it was Modano.

And there was the fact that Nieuwendyk didn't signed him, causing resentments; after that he was in the Stars organization and he suddenly quit to go to Arizona, and then to the Wild. Stars management remained brief and just posted like "ok, he's no more here, good luck to him" and that's it.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:52 pm

I have that Minnesota game on DVD, I don't think you're remembering it correctly. The whole crowd cheered him and there were pro-Modano posters all over the arena. The only time I ever heard them boo Modano was the first game against Dallas when Broten ripped off his Dallas jersey and the Stars lost 6-0.

Modano has had a childish attitude going back to the early 90's. He once threatened to sign with Chicago because he didn't like his linemates. This was pre-Hitch.

Modano's attitude and lack of effort outside of the Hitch era is what aggravated a lot of us around here.

That and his mouth-breathing.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:09 pm

I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Math » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:29 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:I have that Minnesota game on DVD, I don't think you're remembering it correctly. The whole crowd cheered him and there were pro-Modano posters all over the arena. The only time I ever heard them boo Modano was the first game against Dallas when Broten ripped off his Dallas jersey and the Stars lost 6-0.

Modano has had a childish attitude going back to the early 90's. He once threatened to sign with Chicago because he didn't like his linemates. This was pre-Hitch.

Modano's attitude and lack of effort outside of the Hitch era is what aggravated a lot of us around here.

That and his mouth-breathing.


Was it his last game as a Star ? I'm probably mixing some stuff but I remember speaking with some guys in Minnesota and they basically all told that they remained seated and didn't applaud him at the end of the game. Maybe I caught only the minority who disliked him.

That famous 6-0 loss. The Wild was this expansion team that pretty much sucked the whole season while the Stars' were still one of the dominant team of the league after reaching the SC final twice. But are you sure it was Broten ? He retired in 1997 I think.

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:44 pm

Broten was a special guest at the beginning of the game. They showed him on camera wearing a 90's era Broten Dallas Stars jersey.

He ripped it off and underneath was a Minnesota Wild jersey.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:03 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

If he was Canadian, is he even a Hall of Famer? I mean, his career numbers are essentially identical to Turgeon’s.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Knives Out » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:37 pm

Serious question:

Nill isn’t allowed to make another hire, and him being fired won’t change the fact that the players seem to want Monty gone, so if Monty is relieved, who would you want taking over for the rest of the season? Bowness, Nelson, or Stevens?
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:02 pm

Knives Out wrote:Serious question:

Nill isn’t allowed to make another hire, and him being fired won’t change the fact that the players seem to want Monty gone, so if Monty is relieved, who would you want taking over for the rest of the season? Bowness, Nelson, or Stevens?

I’d interview all three and go with the one who proposed the most dramatic change in offensive systems.

With Stevens being a Monty guy they brought in this summer, he might be my least favorite option. Bowness is the obvious answer because he’s been an interim coach a few times before.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby Knives Out » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:13 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
Knives Out wrote:Serious question:

Nill isn’t allowed to make another hire, and him being fired won’t change the fact that the players seem to want Monty gone, so if Monty is relieved, who would you want taking over for the rest of the season? Bowness, Nelson, or Stevens?

I’d interview all three and go with the one who proposed the most dramatic change in offensive systems.

With Stevens being a Monty guy they brought in this summer, he might be my least favorite option. Now ness is the obvious answer because he’s been an interim coach a few times before.

Nelson confirmed.

The correct answer is whoever is willing to strip Benn of the C.
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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:39 am

ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

The Stars outscored the Sabres 13-9 in the Final series with Derian Hatcher scoring an empty-net goal to finish Game 2.

Modano assisted on seven of the 12 goals Dominik Hasek allowed and, after suffering a cracked bone in his left wrist in Game 2, assisted on the last five goals the Stars scored in the final three games.

44:00 mark:



Jere Lehtinen's five points made him the only other player in the series who scored more than three.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/1999-buffalo-sabres-vs-dallas-stars-stanley-cup-final.html

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Re: 2019-2020 Stars Regular Season Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:16 am

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I’m willing to admit that Modano was the 4th or 5th best player on the 99 Cup team.

The Stars outscored the Sabres 13-9 in the Final series with Derian Hatcher scoring an empty-net goal to finish Game 2.

Modano assisted on seven of the 12 goals Dominik Hasek allowed and, after suffering a cracked bone in his left wrist in Game 2, assisted on the last five goals the Stars scored in the final three games.

44:00 mark:



Jere Lehtinen's five points made him the only other player in the series who scored more than three.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/1999-buffalo-sabres-vs-dallas-stars-stanley-cup-final.html


That doesn't refute Scuba's point. Scuba is referring to talent and long-term ranking.

For certain, Zubov and Hull were far more talented than Modano. You could argue Belfour as well. I would put Lehtinen ahead of Modano just because of his work ethic and attitude. Nieuwendyk and Modano are about equal. That puts Modano at about 5th best.
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