04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

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cdanew
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:44 am

ToddM wrote:
cdanew wrote:
ToddM wrote:You laugh, but Honka's being scratched by a coach who needed a Vezina-caliber goalie just to be mediocre.


He was also scratched consistently by: (1) the coach with the 3rd most wins in the NHL, and (2) the coach with the 6th most wins in the NHL, neither of whom managed to make the playoffs in their last seasons.

That's like saying the Canadiens are the best team in hockey because they won a bunch of Cups in the 1970s. Hitch is done. Ruff actually did start Honka and give him minutes, and Honka tore *poo poo* up. Monty would rather default to old and slow, because he's just a younger, slimmer version of Hitch without the Cup.


Yeah, that one goal and -4 in 16 games in 16-17 really tore *poo poo* up.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby BigAl » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:44 am

Kinda off topic, but I think the NHL should create an award for players with the most potential. Call it the Volt award.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:53 am

cdanew wrote:Yeah, that one goal and -4 in 16 games in 16-17 really tore *poo poo* up.


No kidding, just look at this no-talent piece of *poo poo*:



Maybe after two or three more years of 80+ healthy scratches, and he'll finally be as good as Roman Polak! Well, a Finn can dream...

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:53 am

ToddM wrote:I know advanced stats leave you guys confused and aroused, but Honka's, in obviously a very small sample size, are fantastic. Especially on bringing the puck up the ice and setting up scoring chances. He does have a bad habit of trying to force passes through guys at his own blue line, but would you rather have a turnover from a talented young playet trying to create something, or a Lovejoy/Polak Special, where they simply don't have the physical passing ability or vision to beat a physical forecheck?

And if you're dead-set against Honka, because you honestly think that ice time = ability or something, then yes, Bayreuther and Gleason are also much better options than Lovejoy and (now) Fedun. Or they might suck just as bad... Fedun rarely looked this lost in the regular season, so there's no guaruntee Gleason won't either. But we won't know for about two years, because now that Monty (i.e., Ben Bishop) has won a playoff series, we're stuck with him for the long haul.

I would love it if Honka was doing things that lead to offense, but the real stats show he is not. He’s not generating goals or assists. If advanced stats don’t lead to real stats, then there is something else wrong. See, Nichushkin, Val.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:57 am

ToddM wrote:
cdanew wrote:Yeah, that one goal and -4 in 16 games in 16-17 really tore *poo poo* up.


No kidding, just look at this no-talent piece of *poo poo*:



Maybe after two or three more years of 80+ healthy scratches, and he'll finally be as good as Roman Polak! Well, a Finn can dream...

Image
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:59 am

ToddM wrote:
cdanew wrote:Yeah, that one goal and -4 in 16 games in 16-17 really tore *poo poo* up.


No kidding, just look at this no-talent piece of *poo poo*:



Maybe after two or three more years of 80+ healthy scratches, and he'll finally be as good as Roman Polak! Well, a Finn can dream...


Well, maybe if the league goes to full time 3 on 3 he will find his proper place in the NHL. (Just giving you *poo poo* since the one of his two career goals you chose to highlight came from a situation where there is a ton of open ice) :D

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:02 am

"But this only tracks 110+ NHL games!! Small sample size!! FAKENEWS!!"





If these charts hurt your head: red = bad, blue = good. Dark red = below AHL level, and dark blue = elite.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby genschman » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:07 am

wonko80 wrote:The refs have swallowed their whistles so far. Sigh, I hate the stupid difference of penalties in regular season vs playoffs.


I'm a NHL-Fan from Berlin, Germany. I'm surprised about the ref and the 1:0.
I watch a lot of games. Normally in such situations high sticking is punished. But the deflected shot by Schwartz not. Especially as Fedun got the stick in his face, so it's over the shoulder = high sticking, I thought.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:10 am

On exiting the zone in particular, there's a 93-1 disparity between Honka and Polak. 93 to 1!1! That's not a score, that's a percentile. That's like if you were hiring for a software developer position, and passed over the genius whiz kid who can code down to the machine level in favor of the guy who thinks keyboards are for booger storage.

Right now we have a team that is doing really well since the All-Star break, because of one thing: a goalie who can routinely stop 94% of the pucks shot at him. 96% since the break. This, despite the team in front of him giving up the most "expected" goals in the entire postseason.

So, basically, if Bishop is not godlike, we lose. Check our record so far when we give up more than 2 goals.

It's easy for a coach to talk about "the system" and "players buying in" when your goalie is Hodor Hasek. But really Monty doesn't know *poo poo* about defense because benching Honka for Polak/Lovejoy is Exhibit A on How To Cockblock Your Own Team. Every time Polak has the puck on his forehand and fails to clear the zone two or three consecutive times, just remember: we've got a guy who can do that in his sleep. And then he can skate/pass it past an aggressive forecheck, and then he can skate/pass/shoot in the offensive zone.

Or we can "trust the process" and watch Bishop cover up for shitty coaching decisions 40 times a game. I guess that's cool, too.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:16 am

Honest question - why is Polak's chart for 57 games tracked over a 3 year period and Lovejoy's is for 56 games over the same 3 year period? Both of them have played over 70 games each this year alone.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:16 am

Those charts are fan-stat bullshit.

You’re telling me Honka is better than both Heiskanen and Lindell? Ok.

87C34970-E158-46D1-99DD-14780149B546.jpeg

97A20BB8-3D84-4C2A-A7DE-BD04D367DB8D.jpeg


Again, total bullshit.

You can play around with them yourself here: https://public.tableau.com/profile/chri ... nDashboard
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:19 am

cdanew wrote:Honest question - why is Polak's chart for 57 games tracked over a 3 year period and Lovejoy's is for 56 games over the same 3 year period? Both of them have played over 70 games each this year alone.

Because the data is gathered by fans sitting down to watch a sample of a player’s games. The fans then track little things. That small sampling of fan-tracked data is then used to generate broad conclusions about the player’s value. Look at the ones I posed where I limited the data to this season only. We’re talking 15 games max worth of data.

Imagine determining the Art Ross Trophy winner based on who had the most points over a random sampling of 15 games.
Last edited by Troy McClure on Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:19 am

Maybe Honka is just a gigantic asshole to his coaches. It's not like coaches don't know of these stats you bring up. But to have three coaches in a row sit him speaks to something beyond just production or mistakes during games. He is so far down the depth chart that the Black Aces players passed him by. The ones they take on the trips just so they can be around playoff hockey even though there is 1% chance they'll play. Yet Honka sits at home.

So you can spout all of the stats you want, but he's never getting a chance due to something else that we haven't been told and probably never will. I invite you to never post about Honka again as there just isn't really any point in doing so.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby B Kat » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:24 am

A team needs a variety of defensemen. Polak and Lovejoy are good at defense, penalty killing. They are not offensive. (ha ha, pun intended Todd). Klingberg, Miro, Honka are better at getting the puck up this ice, which obviously is important. But in any game, the other team is going to have the puck, either on the PP or during 5-5. It's imperative to have defensemen that can defend. Hopefully Honka will get his chance with another team and light it up. But that team will likely have some other Dmen that can defend. Can't just load up on puck movers.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:26 am

I don't think Honka is good at getting the puck up the ice at all. He's a turnover machine because he's scared shitless when the puck is on his stick.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby B Kat » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:28 am

SaintAngerBH wrote:I don't think Honka is good at getting the puck up the ice at all. He's a turnover machine because he's scared shitless when the puck is on his stick.

He's afraid to make errors and that leads to errors. His head must be a mess. He needs a clean slate.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:29 am

Yeah, but if his mind is that fragile, should he really be playing hockey?
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:10 am

Honka's strength is getting the puck up the ice. In the 6 or so games he's played this year, he did it just fine 95% of the time. You only notice the 5% because those were bad turnovers. It also appears that Monty only saw those 5% as well.

I rarely post about Honka anymore because it's a done deal: for whatever reason --and it's not hockey-related-- Honka is out. Doneski. Far worse hockey players have passed him by and solidified their spots. I can get that: there are plenty of really talented players at Spectrum who I don't want on my soccer team, for various non-ability reasons. Obviously there's something else going on there.

BUT!! --don't use Honka's lack of ice time as a battering ram to claim that he "sucks" because he totally does not "suck." Hopefully Nill cuts bait with him and he goes to another team with a better coach, because that's when he'll make a lot of coaches here look fundamentally stupid. OR--whatever personal problems that have stopped him from excelling his far will continue, and he'll be in the VHL in two years playing the third pair for some Siberian team that can't make payroll.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:13 pm

I like how the two possibilities for him are:

1) He goes to another team and is awesome because our multiple coaches were idiots
or
2) He flames out only due to "personal problems".

I think it is possible that he can fail because he can't perform like coaches expect outside of personal problems. Notice I said coaches and not fans. You know, the guys trying to implement systems to make a whole team play a certain way, not just have 5 dudes out there showcasing their awesome skills.

It's just weird that so many people want to pick Honka as their martyr. Outside of that one shift in 3v3 overtime, I've never noticed him as being amazing. So WTF is the big deal about him?

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:21 pm

He's no martyr to me. I think he sucks. The head issues are part of the package. If you have head issues (see Kari Lehtonen) this is part of why a hockey player can suck.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby BigAl » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:47 pm

genschman wrote:
wonko80 wrote:The refs have swallowed their whistles so far. Sigh, I hate the stupid difference of penalties in regular season vs playoffs.


I'm a NHL-Fan from Berlin, Germany. I'm surprised about the ref and the 1:0.
I watch a lot of games. Normally in such situations high sticking is punished. But the deflected shot by Schwartz not. Especially as Fedun got the stick in his face, so it's over the shoulder = high sticking, I thought.

Hello, new person. Welcome to the madness.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby BigAl » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:56 pm

People advocate for Honka because of the false hope that gets placed on our 1st draft picks. Honka has a certain flash to his style, which was was mistaken for exceptional talent. But his style isn’t talent and it doesn’t translate to the NHL.
It’s painful to admit the hope was misplaced.

PS - all hope is false. Decay and destruction are inevitable.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:25 pm

ToddM wrote:Honka's strength is getting the puck up the ice. In the 6 or so games he's played this year, he did it just fine 95% of the time. You only notice the 5% because those were bad turnovers. It also appears that Monty only saw those 5% as well.

I rarely post about Honka anymore because it's a done deal: for whatever reason --and it's not hockey-related-- Honka is out. Doneski. Far worse hockey players have passed him by and solidified their spots. I can get that: there are plenty of really talented players at Spectrum who I don't want on my soccer team, for various non-ability reasons. Obviously there's something else going on there.

BUT!! --don't use Honka's lack of ice time as a battering ram to claim that he "sucks" because he totally does not "suck." Hopefully Nill cuts bait with him and he goes to another team with a better coach, because that's when he'll make a lot of coaches here look fundamentally stupid. OR--whatever personal problems that have stopped him from excelling his far will continue, and he'll be in the VHL in two years playing the third pair for some Siberian team that can't make payroll.

Every other team in the NHL has access to all the information you do and not one of them thinks they can crack their roster either.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:25 pm

BigAl wrote:People advocate for Honka because of the false hope that gets placed on our 1st draft picks. Honka has a certain flash to his style, which was was mistaken for exceptional talent. But his style isn’t talent and it doesn’t translate to the NHL.
It’s painful to admit the hope was misplaced.

PS - all hope is false. Decay and destruction are inevitable.

That’s all it is. If he was a fourth round pick, no one would care that he’s scratched.

And you’re right about his talent. It’s not special. His shot is average. He’s a slick stick handler. His skating is good but not anything amazing. His playmaking vision is pedestrian. It all adds up to explain why him touching the puck doesn’t result in goals being scored.

It’s not like this staff is afraid of kids. They’ve played tons of young players in big roles all season long. Even back in November when Klingberg was out, the coaches were playing young guys. That Honka can’t find playing time is because he’s not earned it. One shift two years ago isn’t enough. Gotta produce more often than one game every three seasons.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:46 pm

Obviously, whatever advanced stats are the flavor of the day are vastly more reliable than the opinion of three separate professional NHL coaches whose job is to succeed.
Knives Out wrote:Slaps, you're a mongoloid and I've been ignoring most of your posts since the ADSP days.

I'm thinking it might be time to blow it all up.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:51 pm

slaps wrote:Obviously, whatever advanced stats are the flavor of the day are vastly more reliable than the opinion of three separate professional NHL coaches whose job is to succeed.

And a bunch of GMs who have probably had multiple opportunities to acquire Honka for cheap this season.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:07 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
slaps wrote:Obviously, whatever advanced stats are the flavor of the day are vastly more reliable than the opinion of three separate professional NHL coaches whose job is to succeed.

And a bunch of GMs who have probably had multiple opportunities to acquire Honka for cheap this season.


But guys, come on, all of these hockey professionals on the Stars and every other NHL team clearly have no idea what they are looking at.
D\

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:17 pm

Right. The people at TSF should be running this team, anyway.

I would immediately trade Benn. NTC or not.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:36 pm

mookie1010 wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:
mookie1010 wrote:That 4th goal should never have counted though. 100% interference.

Instead of celebrating his shorthanded goal, Cogliano should've been penalized for tripping Brayden Schenn and the Blues should've had a five-on-three power play for 1:04.

Finding another call the refs let go does nothing to negate my original point. It actually reinforces it. All you've shown is that they also got something else wrong at another point in the game.

You wrote that the game-winning goal shouldn't have counted because you believe a penalty should've been called on Pat Maroon before he scored.

I simply pointed out that the same thing happened earlier in the period with Cogliano but that a penalty call there would've given the Blues a five-on-three power play for 1:04 when they were leading by a goal.

Todd, Anger, and wonko have each said they thought Lindell took a dive/flopped on the play you cited while no one said the same about Schenn when he was clearly tripped by Cogliano's stick blade into his skate which was what caused his errant pass that created the two-on-one rush and game-tying goal.

So if there was a point to be made, it was:
B Kat wrote:And really none of those penalties or lack of calls changed the outcome of the game.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:51 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
slaps wrote:Obviously, whatever advanced stats are the flavor of the day are vastly more reliable than the opinion of three separate professional NHL coaches whose job is to succeed.

And a bunch of GMs who have probably had multiple opportunities to acquire Honka for cheap this season.


Exactly. Which leads me to think that this is a Good Old Boys/Playing The Right Way-type of thing, rather than a thing based on actual talent evaluation.

I'd wager a beer that a team like Columbus picks him off waivers this summer and turns him into a reliable 40-point d-man.

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