04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:25 pm

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:You wrote that the game-winning goal shouldn't have counted because you believe a penalty should've been called on Pat Maroon before he scored.

I simply pointed out that the same thing happened earlier in the period with Cogliano but that a penalty call there would've given the Blues a five-on-three power play for 1:04 when they were leading by a goal.

Todd, Anger, and wonko have each said they thought Lindell took a dive/flopped on the play you cited while no one said the same about Schenn when he was clearly tripped by Cogliano's stick blade into his skate which was what caused his errant pass that created the two-on-one rush and game-tying goal.

I'm not re-reffing the entire game, I'm making a point about a specific play. That other specific plays also happened and I chose not to comment on doesn't mean a thing.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:39 pm

ToddM wrote:
Troy McClure wrote:
slaps wrote:Obviously, whatever advanced stats are the flavor of the day are vastly more reliable than the opinion of three separate professional NHL coaches whose job is to succeed.

And a bunch of GMs who have probably had multiple opportunities to acquire Honka for cheap this season.


Exactly. Which leads me to think that this is a Good Old Boys/Playing The Right Way-type of thing, rather than a thing based on actual talent evaluation.

I'd wager a beer that a team like Columbus picks him off waivers this summer and turns him into a reliable 40-point d-man.



Or - and stick with me here, because this may be rough - advanced stats aren't telling the whole story and Honka just isn't good at hockey.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby B Kat » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:49 pm

Stars just didn't play that great last night. Maybe a let down of intensity once they got home. (I hope they are all in a hotel btw) The Blues knew that the Stars were better in the first two games, even though they got 1 win, so they were gonna be on it. Stars should have known that. But that the way hockey go. All of which is Julie's fault.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:50 pm

mookie1010 wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:You wrote that the game-winning goal shouldn't have counted because you believe a penalty should've been called on Pat Maroon before he scored.

I simply pointed out that the same thing happened earlier in the period with Cogliano but that a penalty call there would've given the Blues a five-on-three power play for 1:04 when they were leading by a goal.

Todd, Anger, and wonko have each said they thought Lindell took a dive/flopped on the play you cited while no one said the same about Schenn when he was clearly tripped by Cogliano's stick blade into his skate which was what caused his errant pass that created the two-on-one rush and game-tying goal.

I'm not re-reffing the entire game, I'm making a point about a specific play. That other specific plays also happened and I chose not to comment on doesn't mean a thing.

It apparently doesn't to you, but your debatable point doesn't change the fact that the Blues got the worst of the two non-calls cited here because their player didn't dive on the play and they would've had a two-man advantage for 1:04 when leading by a goal.

The game ended as it should have, with the team that played the best, and deserved it most, winning.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:22 pm

slaps wrote:Or - and stick with me here, because this may be rough - advanced stats aren't telling the whole story and Honka just isn't good at hockey.


If Honka's stats were in the 50s and Polak's were in the 40s, then yes, I'd be splitting hairs. But this is literally top-10% in the NHL vs. bottom 1% of the NHL in ability.

Like, I don't put much stock in SAT scores and whatnot, but I'd rather have my airplane or bridge designed by someone who had a really high test score, over someone who couldn't even sign their name correctly. Unless, of course, that guy who couldn't sign his name ALSO "trusted the process" and "was good in the room" and "designed bridges the old-fashioned way... with GRIT and PLUCK."

You know, all the "intangibles" that you guys made fun of every single day from 2009-2014 or so.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:37 pm

ToddM wrote:
slaps wrote:Or - and stick with me here, because this may be rough - advanced stats aren't telling the whole story and Honka just isn't good at hockey.


If Honka's stats were in the 50s and Polak's were in the 40s, then yes, I'd be splitting hairs. But this is literally top-10% in the NHL vs. bottom 1% of the NHL in ability.

Like, I don't put much stock in SAT scores and whatnot, but I'd rather have my airplane or bridge designed by someone who had a really high test score, over someone who couldn't even sign their name correctly. Unless, of course, that guy who couldn't sign his name ALSO "trusted the process" and "was good in the room" and "designed bridges the old-fashioned way... with GRIT and PLUCK."

You know, all the "intangibles" that you guys made fun of every single day from 2009-2014 or so.


Yeah, we should automate everything because nothing is ever flawed with an algorithm. Just ask Boeing. :shock:

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:40 pm

ToddM wrote:
slaps wrote:Or - and stick with me here, because this may be rough - advanced stats aren't telling the whole story and Honka just isn't good at hockey.


If Honka's stats were in the 50s and Polak's were in the 40s, then yes, I'd be splitting hairs. But this is literally top-10% in the NHL vs. bottom 1% of the NHL in ability.

Like, I don't put much stock in SAT scores and whatnot, but I'd rather have my airplane or bridge designed by someone who had a really high test score, over someone who couldn't even sign their name correctly. Unless, of course, that guy who couldn't sign his name ALSO "trusted the process" and "was good in the room" and "designed bridges the old-fashioned way... with GRIT and PLUCK."

You know, all the "intangibles" that you guys made fun of every single day from 2009-2014 or so.


Any stat that has Honka as top 10% in the NHL in anything other than sitting on the sideline is inherently suspect.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:55 pm

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:It apparently doesn't to you, but your debatable point doesn't change the fact that the Blues got the worst of the two non-calls cited here because their player didn't dive on the play and they would've had a two-man advantage for 1:04 when leading by a goal.


Again, you want to create a relationship between these 2 events that I don't think exists. I don't care that they missed an earlier call, I'm not commenting on that play. Because the refs missed a call earlier, they shouldn't make a call later? Horseshit. This wasn't a make up call. It's irrelevant to this discussion. I'll bet someone also spilled their fries in the stands, but it didn't impact this particular play I am commenting on.

And even if he dove as some think, it only matters whether the original action was an actual penalty, since you can have a penalty and a dive on the same play, evidenced earlier in the game.
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:The game ended as it should have, with the team that played the best, and deserved it most, winning.


Where did I say otherwise?
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:13 pm

mookie1010 wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:It apparently doesn't to you, but your debatable point doesn't change the fact that the Blues got the worst of the two non-calls cited here because their player didn't dive on the play and they would've had a two-man advantage for 1:04 when leading by a goal.

Again, you want to create a relationship between these 2 events that I don't think exists. I don't care that they missed an earlier call, I'm not commenting on that play. Because the refs missed a call earlier, they shouldn't make a call later? Horseshit. This wasn't a make up call. It's irrelevant to this discussion. I'll bet someone also spilled their fries in the stands, but it didn't impact this particular play I am commenting on.

And even if he dove as some think, it only matters whether the original action was an actual penalty, since you can have a penalty and a dive on the same play, evidenced earlier in the game.
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:The game ended as it should have, with the team that played the best, and deserved it most, winning.

Where did I say otherwise?

You didn't specifically say otherwise but I replied because of the feeling I got seeing you just happen to choose the play on which the game-deciding goal was scored against your team with 1:38 remaining to complain about bad officiating in that game.

I think the other non-call that I mentioned was considerably worse and explained why. That's all.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:35 pm

You specifically deleted my original quote where I said the Blues were the better team for most of the game.

I complained elsewhere about the officiating in this thread.

If you want to have a standard where in order to evaluate any call/non-call in the game, I have to evaluate all calls/non calls, well, that's just ridic.

If fans griping about officiating in sports is something you don't want to read, I suggest perhaps avoiding.......I don't know......fans?
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:28 pm

If Honka is the top 10% in the NHL in some stats, then it should immediately make you question the validity/usefulness of those stats.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:30 pm

wonko80 wrote:If Honka is the top 10% in the NHL in some stats, then it should immediately make you question the validity/usefulness of those stats.


That's the way I see it too.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:39 pm

Those exact same stats say that Klingberg is in the 99th percentile and Heiskanen the 97th. Which, you know, isn't BS.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:40 pm

mookie1010 wrote:You specifically deleted my original quote where I said the Blues were the better team for most of the game.

I complained elsewhere about the officiating in this thread.

If you want to have a standard where in order to evaluate any call/non-call in the game, I have to evaluate all calls/non calls, well, that's just ridic.

If fans griping about officiating in sports is something you don't want to read, I suggest perhaps avoiding.......I don't know......fans?

I don't want to evaluate all of the calls. The officiating is bad. I think anyone who watches any of the major professional sports with any degree of regularity recognizes that.

You chose to complain about the lack of a call on the game-deciding goal against your team very late in the game, saying it was 100% interference, which I don't agree with and apparently Lindell didn't, either, since he didn't complain to either of the referees about it.

I think the missed call that resulted in a goal for your team 5:16 earlier was considerably worse and explained why.

I have no idea why my pointing that out bothers you so much but it's fairly entertaining to me so I'm happy to continue if you are.

Josh Lile wrote:On the Patrick Maroon game-winning goal he could have picked up a penalty for interference, but the more I watch it with the benefit of 12 hours of hindsight the more I question how hard Lindell was really pushed.

That's unquestionably a result of the flopping he did earlier in the game. I don't know that Maroon did enough to negate a goal given how little he appeared to do relative to the standard for a penalty in the playoffs. Even though the end result was a goal with Lindell laying flat on his stomach eating ice I don't think an official can reasonably take that goal off the board. Given how Lindell conducted himself towards the end of the second period it would be silly to think that who was on the ice didn't at least cross the minds of officials as they decided the outcome of the play.

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-stars/stars/2019/04/30/esa-lindell-dive-dallas-stars-patrick-maroon-st-louis-blues-robert-bortuzzo?f=r

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:59 pm

ToddM wrote:Those exact same stats say that Klingberg is in the 99th percentile and Heiskanen the 97th. Which, you know, isn't BS.

Do they show that across the same sample size as Honka? I just don't really get how his limited ice time and sheltered 3rd pairing minutes compare to Heiskanen or Klingberg who play lots of minutes and against way better players. Perhaps he could be better than Fedun, but man, that's not really saying much. Is he better at breakouts than Polak? Sure he is. Does he defend better than Polak? There is zero chance. He'd never be put on the penalty kill.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby mookie1010 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:26 pm

#JTONTFJTGM wrote:I have no idea why my pointing that out bothers you so much but it's fairly entertaining to me so I'm happy to continue if you are.

Because it's a dumb and logically inconsistent way to look at sports and look at things in general. I evaluated one event and you decided arbitrarily to assign a relationship that didn't exist to make a point that is not relevant to my point.

I'm done. You want the last word, it's yours.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:58 pm

mookie1010 wrote:
#JTONTFJTGM wrote:I have no idea why my pointing that out bothers you so much but it's fairly entertaining to me so I'm happy to continue if you are.

Because it's a dumb and logically inconsistent way to look at sports and look at things in general. I evaluated one event and you decided arbitrarily to assign a relationship that didn't exist to make a point that is not relevant to my point.

I'm done. You want the last word, it's yours.

Okay, I'll take it. I explained multiple times what the relationship was. For some reason you've chosen to act like it doesn't exist and now call it dumb. So I'll explain it again.

Each team scored a goal in the later stages of the third period of a tightly-contested playoff game as a direct result of a possible missed penalty call by the referees.

I replied to your calling the highly-debatable one that you chose to complain about, in which the game-deciding goal was scored against your team with 1:38 remaining, "100% interference," which I'm not alone in disagreeing with while showing how and why.

The missed penalty call that I mentioned occurred 5:16 before the one that you complained about, I haven't seen anyone dispute the fact that Andrew Cogliano tripped Brayden Schenn, or claim that Schenn took a dive, which resulted in the game-tying goal for your team when the Blues should've had a five-on-three power play for 1:04 while leading 2-1 with 6:57 remaining.

Congratulations on acting like a child in this discussion which couldn't be any funnier to me.

And thanks for the :doglaugh .

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Wed May 01, 2019 1:00 am

wonko80 wrote:
ToddM wrote:Those exact same stats say that Klingberg is in the 99th percentile and Heiskanen the 97th. Which, you know, isn't BS.

Do they show that across the same sample size as Honka? I just don't really get how his limited ice time and sheltered 3rd pairing minutes compare to Heiskanen or Klingberg who play lots of minutes and against way better players. Perhaps he could be better than Fedun, but man, that's not really saying much. Is he better at breakouts than Polak? Sure he is. Does he defend better than Polak? There is zero chance. He'd never be put on the penalty kill.


No, Honka's sample size is really, really small, because, y'know, Coach Stuff.

I still don't get the love for Polak on this board. "He MUST be good, because otherwise he wouldn't be on the PK!" I've watched him all season, and cringe every time he's killing a penalty because the only positive thing he does is take up space. Which, like, practically anyone on this board could also do if they laced 'em up. Polak is probably the worst Stars defender we've had since Woywitka, who also inexplicably got ice time despite idiotic turnovers and mind-bending defensive decisions. If we all decided to play a drinking game where we took a chug every time the announcer said "...and [forward] gets a step on Polak," we'd all die of liver poisoning by the second intermission.

Or just watch who's on the ice when an enemy forward is all alone in front of the net. Guess who should've been covering him 75% of the time, and was either too slow to keep up or made a bad read and skated in a completely useless direction?

But he's got Intangibles, so that makes him Untouchable.

I guess he's useful for padding Bishop's insane high-danger save percentage, which might help him win the Vezina, if NHL GMs even pay attention to that stat.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby BigAl » Wed May 01, 2019 6:22 am

What I like most about Polak is that he doesn’t suck nearly as bad as Honka.
Could of.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby Troy McClure » Wed May 01, 2019 6:26 am

You're overstating his praise. Polak plays far more minutes than he should, but that is entirely due to Methot and Johns getting hurt combined with Honka failing to step up despite being given the opportunity. There was also the hope that Karlsson would be here in a top four role, but that didn't work out because the Senators chose what the Sharks were offering over Honka.

For his salary and expectations, Polak is doing fine. He isn't supposed to be playing this big minute role, but he is. I'd be shitting on guys like Polak, Lovejoy, or Fedun if there were better options, but there aren't. Those are the guys available, and their limitations are known.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby B Kat » Wed May 01, 2019 7:51 am

And those players are doing alright. Here we are in the second round.

@Bob. No ref was gonna call the Cogliano trip on Schenn to give a team a 5-3 at that point, even in a regular season game. A ref may have called the cross check on Maroon, but again, at that point in a playoff game, not likely. The reffing was very inconsistent in the game, we can all agree on that. That your Blues were the better team has nothing to do with inconsistent calls. Let’s hope they are better tonight.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Wed May 01, 2019 8:18 am

Troy McClure wrote:You're overstating his praise. Polak plays far more minutes than he should, but that is entirely due to Methot and Johns getting hurt combined with Honka failing to step up despite being given the opportunity. There was also the hope that Karlsson would be here in a top four role, but that didn't work out because the Senators chose what the Sharks were offering over Honka.

For his salary and expectations, Polak is doing fine. He isn't supposed to be playing this big minute role, but he is. I'd be shitting on guys like Polak, Lovejoy, or Fedun if there were better options, but there aren't. Those are the guys available, and their limitations are known.

How many Polaks does it take to keep Honka from touching the ice?





Zero. Honka does it on his own.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Wed May 01, 2019 8:53 am

Troy McClure wrote:You're overstating his praise. Polak plays far more minutes than he should, but that is entirely due to Methot and Johns getting hurt combined with Honka failing to step up despite being given the opportunity. There was also the hope that Karlsson would be here in a top four role, but that didn't work out because the Senators chose what the Sharks were offering over Honka.

For his salary and expectations, Polak is doing fine. He isn't supposed to be playing this big minute role, but he is. I'd be shitting on guys like Polak, Lovejoy, or Fedun if there were better options, but there aren't. Those are the guys available, and their limitations are known.


I don't think anyone here has ever danced with glee or gone on about how great Polak is. To the extent they have, it's always been qualified with a comment about his contract and relative to expectations. Which I think is the hot take of pretty much everyone who watches the Stars. Polak is fine relative to what was expected of him coming in, and his cap hit. I don't think you'll find anyone who legitimately thinks Polak is a top-four defenseman, but he's doing OK filling in. It's gotten us this far, and hopefully gets addressed in the off-season.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby wonko80 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:00 am

So far the Blues have helped solidfy for me how weak our bottom three defensemen are. So yes, that hopefully is addressed in the offseason.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Wed May 01, 2019 9:20 am

Jordie Benn is available.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ToddM » Wed May 01, 2019 10:49 am

slaps wrote: I don't think you'll find anyone who legitimately thinks Polak is a top-four defenseman, but he's doing OK filling in. It's gotten us this far, and hopefully gets addressed in the off-season.


Monty thinks he's a top-4 d-man.

And it's important not to confuse process (Polak sucking at D) with results (the team is in the second round). We're where we are despite Polak, not because of him. I get that he has a "role" --big tough guy who blocks shots-- but even if you don't want an offensive guy in there like Honka or Bayruether or Gleason or Carrick, you've still got Hanley, who kicked ass in that exact same role and for his efforts was rewarded with a trip back to the AHL.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Wed May 01, 2019 11:15 am

ToddM wrote:
slaps wrote: I don't think you'll find anyone who legitimately thinks Polak is a top-four defenseman, but he's doing OK filling in. It's gotten us this far, and hopefully gets addressed in the off-season.


Monty thinks he's a top-4 d-man.

And it's important not to confuse process (Polak sucking at D) with results (the team is in the second round). We're where we are despite Polak, not because of him. I get that he has a "role" --big tough guy who blocks shots-- but even if you don't want an offensive guy in there like Honka or Bayruether or Gleason or Carrick, you've still got Hanley, who kicked ass in that exact same role and for his efforts was rewarded with a trip back to the AHL.


This line of thinking truly baffles me. Montgomery is a first-year coach with a franchise under immense pressure to have a successful postseason run. I don't think that Montgomery thinks that Polak is a top-four defenseman. I think that Montgomery looks at his available options and finds that the least-bad option to round out the top four is Polak.

Three different professional coaches have measured Honka's game and found him wanting. One is a bad coach, two is some sort of internal issue, three is a guy who simply isn't good enough at hockey for whatever reason. If Montgomery thought Honka was his best chance of being successful, he would play him.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed May 01, 2019 11:31 am

I'll defer to the people who watch these players practice every single day. If Honka or Hanley were actually a better option than Polak, they'd be in.
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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby cdanew » Wed May 01, 2019 12:09 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:I'll defer to the people who watch these players practice every single day. If Honka or Hanley were actually a better option than Polak, they'd be in.


Hanley is drawing in tonight for Fedun.

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Re: 04/29 Game 3 vs St. Louis (7pm) - SNUBBED

Postby slaps » Wed May 01, 2019 12:10 pm

Fedun was brutal in the last game.
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