Ralph sounds like a real ball...

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BigAl
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby BigAl » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:29 pm

Did we ever decide whether which defenseman was more important to the Stars? On one hand Zubov scored a gajillion points, but on the the other hand Hatcher proved his leadership by smashing someone's cd in the locker room.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Man. Could you imagine Hatcher trying to play in today's NHL? That would be hilarious.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby ScubaSteve » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:55 pm

Let's just agree that Modano was one of the top four or five most important Americans on the Cup team.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:07 pm

Hull was more important and he wasn't even really American.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:02 am

SaintAngerBH wrote:You cannot compare Modano's point production to Zubov's because Zubov was a defenseman. It is more appropriate to compare each player to the other players who played the same position. The only defenseman I can think of who was greater than Zubov was Lidstrom. Niedermayer and Pronger in his prime were up there as well. I can think of lots of forwards who were better than Modano. Lemieux, Jagr, Yzerman, Sakic, Lindros before the injuries, Hull....all of them were more talented and better than Modano.

Sure I can, and here's how.

In the regular season during his age 22-24 seasons with the Rangers, Zubov scored 156 points in 165 games (0.95 points per game) and in those three seasons the Rangers' number one center, Mark Messier, scored 228 points in 197 games (1.16 points per game) for a net differential of -0.21 points per game.

In the 1994 and '95 playoffs, Zubov scored 30 points in 32 games (0.94) and Messier scored 43 points in 33 games (1.30) for a net differential of -0.36

In his next regular season with the Rangers after Zubov was traded to the Penguins, Messier scored 99 points in 74 games (1.34) and 11 points in 11 playoff games (my point here being he scored at an even higher rate in the regular season without Zubov and still at a point per game in the playoffs.)

I didn't see much of Zubov's age 25 season with the Penguins but he scored 66 points in 64 regular season games (1.03) and 15 points in 18 playoff games (0.83)

Does it seem likely that after those four NHL seasons of offensive production that Zubov's ability to score relative to Messier's production would suddenly diminish if the number one center on his next team wasn't Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky?

During their 12 seasons as teammates in Dallas, Zubov scored 549 points in 839 regular season games (0.65) and Modano scored 817 points in 899 games (0.91) for a net differential of -0.26

This was what it was for the first seven seasons when they were each ages 26-32 and the Stars were at their best:

1996-'97 - Zubov 43 points in 78 games (0.55), Modano 83 points in 80 games (1.04) -0.49

1997-'98 - Zubov 57 points in 73 games (0.78), Modano 59 points in 52 games (1.13) -0.35

1998-'99 - Zubov 51 points in 81 games (0.63), Modano 81 points in 77 games (1.05) -0.42

'99-2000 - Zubov 42 points in 77 games (0.55), Modano 81 points in 77 games (1.05) -0.50

2000-'01 - Zubov 51 points in 79 games (0.65), Modano 84 points in 81 games (1.04) -0.39

2001-'02 - Zubov 44 points in 80 games (0.55), Modano 77 points in 78 games (0.99) -0.44

2002-'03 - Zubov 55 points in 82 games (0.67), Modano 85 points in 79 games (1.08) -0.41

Zubov scored 72 points in 114 playoff games (0.63) with the Stars from 1997-2008 and during that time Modano scored 108 points in 126 games (0.86) for a net differential of -0.23 with the greatest disparity between them occurring in the 1999 Stanley Cup Championship and 2000 Western Conference Championship seasons, which is significant since my argument is that Ralph Strangis is nuts for saying that Zubov was the only irreplaceable player on the 1999 Stanley Cup Champion team:

1997 - Zubov 3 points in 7 games (0.43), Modano 5 points in 7 games (0.71) -0.28

1998 - Zubov 9 points in 17 games (0.53), Modano 14 points in 17 games (0.82) -0.29

1999 - Zubov 13 points in 23 games (0.57), Modano 23 points in 23 games (1.00) -0.43

2000 - Zubov 9 points in 18 games (0.50), Modano 23 points in 23 games (1.00) -0.50

2001 - Zubov 6 points in 10 games (0.60), Modano 7 points in 9 games (0.78) -0.18

2003 - Zubov 14 points in 12 games (1.17), Modano 15 points in 12 games (1.25) -0.08

2004 - Zubov 2 points in 5 games (0.40), Modano 3 points in 5 games (0.60) -0.20

2006 - Zubov 6 points in 5 games (1.20), Modano 4 points in 5 games (0.80) +0.40

2007 - Zubov 4 points in 6 games (0.67), Modano 2 points in 7 games (0.29) +0.38

2008 - Zubov 6 points in 11 games (0.55), Modano 12 points in 18 games (0.67) -0.12

The only playoff game that the North Stars or Stars ever played without Modano during his career once he became a full-time player in the 1989-'90 season was the final game played at Reunion Arena, a 2-1 loss to the Blues in Game 2 of the second round in 2001.

I'll restate that the Stars beat the Oilers in five games in the first round of the 2000 playoffs and beat the defending Stanley Cup Champion Ducks in six games in the first round of the 2008 playoffs when Zubov didn't play.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby slaps » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:05 am

I bet Modano would be too lazy to read that wall of text.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby ToddM » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:25 am

I agree with JTONTFJTGM: Zubov was clearly better than Modano.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:44 am

Facing elimination in Game 5 of the 2000 Stanley Cup Final in New Jersey, Zubov played 38:55 on 47 shifts which was second-most among Stars' defensemen to Derian Hatcher's 42:44 on 50 shifts: http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/200006080NJD.html

In 43:37 of playing time this was Modano's 60th shift of the game:



Jason Diamos wrote:Larry Robinson had been asked how tough it would be for the Devils to lose a six-period game, travel to Dallas, then try to motivate themselves to close out the series Saturday night on the road.

''Well,'' said Robinson, making a late-night attempt at levity, ''I think we are the fresher team anyway. With Modano playing about 75 minutes tonight, he probably played more than half our team put together. ''Every second shift he was out there,'' Robinson said about Modano, who turned 30 on Wednesday and played a team-high 43 minutes 37 seconds. ''And he's not a young man anymore."

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/10/sports/stanley-cup-finals-stars-say-winning-gives-them-momentum.html

The Stars scored 9 goals in the six games of that series with two of them occurring while trailing 7-1 in the third period of Game 1.

Modano and Brett Hull led the Stars with four points each while Zubov went scoreless and was a team-worst -5: http://www.hockey-reference.com/playoffs/2000-dallas-stars-vs-new-jersey-devils-stanley-cup-final.html

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am

And if Modano put in that kind of effort for all 20 of his seasons instead of about five of them, he'd be viewed by others the way you see him.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:15 am

I feel like I'm trying to teach English to a dog. It is futile.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:24 am

I think Modano was a pretty good second liner behind Joe Nieuwendyk during our cup years.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:46 am

Yes. Bob Gainey recognized that we needed a true first liner when he traded for Joe.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:40 am

Troy McClure wrote:And if Modano put in that kind of effort for all 20 of his seasons instead of about five of them, he'd be viewed by others the way you see him.

It's actually extremely amusing to me that the player most responsible for the only Stanley Cup Championship your favorite team has ever won is viewed by you and others here the way that he apparently is.

As opposed to how the NHL and Hockey Hall of Fame view him.

And your comment is not exactly a boon to Ralph Strangis's claim that Zubov was the most irreplaceable Star given that Modano outproduced him by as much as he did for the 12 seasons they were teammates.

Kirk McLean was the Canucks' goaltender in the 1994 Stanley Cup Final when Zubov scored 6 points in 6 games for the Rangers and Mark Messier was credited with 7 points in 7 games despite the fact that he never touched the puck on his Game 7 winning goal that Canucks' forward John McIntyre batted into his own net.

Modano outscored Zubov 7-3 in the 1999 Stanley Cup Final and 4-0 in the 2000 Stanley Cup Final which means you can add Zubov's point-per-game scoring against McLean in 1994 and Modano still scored two more points in 12 Stanley Cup Final games against Dominik Hasek and Martin Brodeur than Zubov scored in all 18 Stanley Cup Final games he played in.

Ralph's quote to Dan and Jake: "To me they don't win anything without Zubov. They could have replaced ANYBODY else on that roster, INCLUDING Modano, in my opinion, but they do not win that Cup without Zubov."

The story of Game 3 of the 1999 Stanley Cup Final: http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/injured-modano-pains-sabres-article-1.824024

Between Games 5 and 6: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/19/sports/stanley-cup-finals-danger-now-modano-s-middle-name.html

Game 6: https://www.nhl.com/stars/video/defining-moments-the-cup/t-289283314/c-52381303

From Sports Illustrated's series recap:

Michael Farber wrote:Modano was as good as his vow in Dallas's 2-0 victory in Game 5, setting up defenseman Darryl Sydor's power-play goal with a sweet cross-ice pass from the right half boards and creating the second goal with sheer determination. Modano pried the puck from Buffalo defenseman Alexei Zhitnik along the boards and then kicked it ahead to defenseman Richard Matvichuk for a two-on-one break that wing Pat Verbeek finished with a deke and a backhander. Despite his left (shooting hand) wrist being fractured in Game 2, Modano also won 15 of 23 faceoffs, stole the puck three times and blocked a shot. These weren't the little things; they were huge things.

Modano continued his rejuvenation in Game 6, taking a wipeout hit from forward Erik Rasmussen along the boards to make the play that led to the Stars' first goal and starting the Cup-winner with his strong work down low. He should have been exhausted by then. He had played 46:12, six minutes more than any other forward in a game that would have had a guaranteed spot in the safe-deposit box of the memory even without its contentious conclusion. "When we thought the game was special was going into the third overtime," Hitchcock said. "We knew that whichever way it turned, we were going to be part of something that people would be talking about for a long time."

They were part of something special that people would be talking about for a long time, but apparently not remembered all that well by the team's play-by-play announcer and some of its fans.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:47 am

:WORDS
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby B Kat » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:51 am

Yo, Bob. People are gonna have their own opinions. Stats are one basis of said opinions. A great team, in hockey especially, is what makes a champion. Maybe Modano scored more points than Zubov in his career, but the Stars win because they had a great team, which included many great players performing well in their roles. Modano's scoring was aided by Zubov, and Lehtinen and Nieuwendyk. Modano aided those players as well.

Modano can be your most important player, but when other people think it's Zubov, why care? Both are great, both are pretty much irreplaceable. They did play different positions and roles and each FAN gets to decide their own preference. Even if it's not based on point production.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby Troy McClure » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:11 am

And to be clear, my gripes about Modano aren't about what he did in the finals in 99. He was awesome during the Cup run. He was awesome the season before the Cup run. He was awesome the season after the Cup run. I think Zubov was better and more important, but that's not to insult Modano's contribution during those seasons.

My gripes about Modano come later when he simply stopped trying. His run as a truly great player wasn't cut short by injury. It ended because his effort level dropped way off. I know his effort level dropped because he said as much when he went to the Wings. As Sakic aged, he kept putting up monster offensive numbers. As Yzerman aged, he took on a role playing as a checking line center. Modano just reverted to being a floater who put up nice but not spectacular offensive numbers.

If you want to give Modano a free pass all because of his contributions during the Cup run, you're more than free to do so. Maybe I shouldn't let my memory of that Modano be tainted by Modano's half-assed play after being pissed about losing the C or by Modano tanking a season all because he didn't like Sean Avery or Modano's endless whining after retirement about how the Stars aren't willing to pay him to live in Arizona to play golf.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:32 am

Honestly, both Zubov and Modano were replaceable. Insert Neidermayer or Lidstrom in for Zubov. Insert Sakic or Yzerman in for Modano.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby Stars2099 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:49 am

Zubov dominated and smoked in between periods. He wins
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:17 am

Hogue was the only truly irreplaceable player on that team.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby ToddM » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:22 am

My gripes about Modano are about how much he sucked during the 99 Cup run.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:29 am

Brent Severyn was pivotal in his role.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:30 am

To make myself clear, you're all entitled to your own opinions and I'm not bothered by any of them, even if I think they are silly.

I'm amused by them, but definitely not bothered by them.

It was Ralph's comment, of all people, which I quoted in my last post, that I originally took issue with and stayed on point having disputed with everything that I've said.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby Stars2099 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:30 am

Neither as important as Lyashenko was to the 2000 cup run team
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:32 am

This is like those women who have to exclaim on their Tinder profile "I hate drama." If you have to say it............
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:25 pm

With the exception of Jim Gregory, who no longer votes, below are the 18 men who continue to decide that Zubov doesn't belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame.

See if you can make any sense out of why that is because I can't, especially given that we know Russian defensemen are allowed to be inducted since Viacheslav Fetisov was in 2001 and that:

I know John Davidson saw what I saw from Zubov's time with the Rangers because he was the television color analyst of their games and I spoke with him during that time. He was also the color analyst for FOX when they were televising postseason games during the Stars' best years.

Colin Campbell was an associate coach with the Rangers during Zubov's first two seasons and then the head coach during Zubov's last season there in 1995.

During Zubov's first two seasons with the Rangers he was teammates with Mike Gartner until Gartner was traded to the Maple Leafs on March 21st, 1994.

Ron Francis was Zubov's teammate with the Penguins in the 1995-'96 season.

Igor Larionov was Zubov's teammate with CSKA Moscow in the 1988-'89 season and with Team Russia in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey.

Jari Kurri played against Zubov for six NHL seasons and Luc Robitaille, traded with Ulf Samuelsson by the Penguins to the Rangers for Zubov and Petr Nedved, played against Zubov for 13 NHL seasons.

During Scotty Bowman's time coaching the Red Wings from 1993-2002, Ken Hitchcock was the only head coach to post a winning record against him so Bowman would certainly be familiar with how great a player Zubov was to gameplan for and coach against.

With Paul Kariya and Mark Recchi both having played their last NHL games after Zubov did, this group determined that Kariya, Recchi and Dave Andreychuk were all more deserving for this year's inductions than Zubov?

Seriously?

Hockey Hall of Fame Selection Committee

John Davidson, Chair
A native of Ottawa, Ontario, John Davidson played in over 300 regular season games from 1973 to 1983 in the National Hockey League with St Louis and the New York Rangers. He became a veteran in the media circuit as a hockey analyst including work with Hockey Night in Canada and the Hot Stove Lounge, ESPN, ABC, FOX and the MSG Network. Davidson previously served as the President of Hockey Operations for the St. Louis Blues and took on the same role for the Columbus Blue Jackets on October 24, 2012. On April 1, 2014, Davidson succeeded Jim Gregory as Chair of the Hockey Hall of Fame Selection Committee.

James M. Gregory, Chair Emeritus
Honoured Member Jim Gregory served as the General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs from 1969 to 1979. He later ran the NHL's Central Scouting department, and served as the Senior Vice-President of Hockey Operations for the National Hockey League's Toronto office. For seventeen years Gregory served as Selection Committee Chair and continues to lend his vast knowledge and support to the committee in a non-voting capacity as Chair Emeritus.

Scott Bowman
Elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1991 in the Builder Category, Scott Bowman's success over his 30-year NHL coaching career includes nine Stanley Cup victories, one more than the legendary Toe Blake. Bowman retired from coaching after leading the Detroit Red Wings to the Stanley Cup in 2002. Bowman would come out of retirement in 2008 to serve as Senior Advisor of Hockey Operations for the Chicago Blackhawks and to work alongside his son Stan. In this role he would capture Stanley Cups number 12 and 13 in 2010 and 2013 respectively.

David Branch
Born and raised in Bathurst, New Brunswick, David Branch has served as the Commissioner of the Ontario Hockey League since August 11, 1979, and as the President of the Canadian Hockey League since 1996. Under his command, the OHL has grown from 12 teams to 20 and is now a high profile marketable product, with multiple games broadcast on television and radio.

Brian Burke
Born in Providence, Rhode Island and raised in Edina, Minnesota Brian Burke earned his law degree at the prestigious Harvard University and began serving as an NHL player agent following graduation. He has served as the NHL's Executive Vice President and Director of Hockey Operations, the General Manager of the Hartford Whalers, Vancouver Canucks, Anaheim Ducks as well as the President and General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Colin Campbell
After turning pro with Vancouver of the WHA in 1973-74, Colin Campbell went on to play eleven seasons of defense in the National Hockey League. Following his retirement as a player in 1985, Colin pursued a coaching career that led him back to the NHL behind the bench as head coach of the New York Rangers for four seasons. Today, Colin Campbell is the Executive Vice President and Director of Hockey Operations for the National Hockey League.

Bob Clarke
Serving as captain of the Philadelphia Flyers "Broad Street Bullies" teams of the 1970's, Bob Clarke led the club to back-to-back Stanley Cup championships in 1974 and 1975. Upon completion of his playing career Clarke would become the fourth general manager in Flyers history. In over 40 years with the Flyers franchise Clarke has served as President, Senior Vice President and General Manager. He also spent time as the Vice President and General Manager of the Florida Panthers (1993-94) and the Minnesota North Stars (1990-92).

Marc de Foy
Marc de Foy has covered hockey in Montreal for more than 30 years. During that time de Foy has earned the respect of the hockey world by routinely breaking stories and by consistently producing honest and accurate copy. In 2010 he was awarded the Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award for hockey journalism.

Eric Duhatschek
Duhatschek began covering the Calgary Flames in the late 1970s and currently serves as the Globe and Mail's primary western hockey correspondent. He was presented the Elmer Ferguson Memorial Award for distinguished hockey journalism in 2001.

Michael Farber
Following 15 years as an accomplished sports columnist for the Montreal Gazette, Micheal Farber became senior writer with Sports Illustrated in 1994 and now stands as one of the magazine's top journalists. Farber, a New Jersey native, received the Elmer Ferguson Award for distinguished hockey writing in 2003.

Ron Francis
Hockey Hall of Fame Honoured Member, Ron Francis, ranks second on the NHL all-time assist list and is a two-time Stanley Cup champion. At the completion of his playing career, the long-time Carolina Hurricanes captain would serve the club in a variety of capacities before being named the executive vice president and general manager on April 24, 2014. The Hurricanes officially retired Francis's No. 10 jersey on January 28, 2006.

Mike Gartner
After an illustrious hockey career that combined unrivalled skating speed with a scoring prowess that netted 708 goals, Mike Gartner was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2001. He represented Canada at numerous international tournaments including multiple World Championships and Canada Cups and later served as President of the NHLPA for the latter part of the 1990s.

Anders Hedberg
Born in Örnsköldsvik, Sweden, Anders Hedberg is regarded as one of the first European-born players to make an impact on North American hockey. Following a standout playing career, Hedberg went on to serve in various front office capacities with the New York Rangers, Toronto Maple Leafs and Ottawa Senators. In 2000 he was appointed General Manager of the Swedish national team and was elected to the Swedish Hockey Hall of Fame in 2012.

Jari Kurri
Hockey Hall of Fame Honoured Member, Jari Kurri, was one of the most feared snipers in NHL history and key contributor to the Edmonton Oilers five Stanley Cup wins between 1984 and 1990. With his playing days behind him, Kurri took on the role of general manager of the Finnish national team in 2003 and is currently the general manger of Jokerit, the first Finnish KHL league team.

Igor Larionov
In one of the most decorated careers the game of hockey has ever seen, Igor Larionov was an icon of international play before he ever joined the NHL. Twice an Olympic gold medalist and four times a World Champion, Larionov was 29 when he finally played his first National Hockey League game. He would go on to win three Stanley Cup championships with the Detroit Red Wings and was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2008.

Bob McKenzie
One of the most connected and trusted analysts in the world of hockey, Bob McKenzie served as editor-in-chief of The Hockey News and then as a hockey columnist for The Toronto Star before joining TSN in the late 1980's. Since that time McKenzie's NHL and international hockey coverage has raised the standard for an entire industry. In 2013 McKenzie was named one of the 20 most powerful figures in sports media by Sports Illustrated.

David Poile
David Poile is one of the longest-tenured General Managers in NHL history. He spent 15 years in that capacity for the Washington Capitals (1982-1997) before joining the Nashville Predators as the first (and only) GM in franchise history. He guided both the Capitals and Predators for over 1,000 games and 500 victories and is the only GM to accomplish that feat with two different teams. On the in international stage Poile served as General Manager for the United States team at the 2014 Olympic Winter games held in Sochi, Russia.

Luc Robitaille
Hockey Hall of Fame Honoured Member, Luc Robitaille, is the highest scoring left winger in NHL history and the Los Angeles Kings all-time leading goal scorer. Upon retiring as a player, Robitaille, joined the Kings front office staff where he serves as President, Business Operations. In this role, Robitaille and the Kings captured the first Stanley Cup title in franchise history in 2012. On January 20, 2007, Robitaille became the fifth Kings player to have his number retired by the club.

Bill Torrey
Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in the Builder Category in 1995, Montreal, Quebec native Bill Torrey was General Manger of the New York Islanders dynasty during the 1970s and 1980s. Known for building teams through the draft and developing young players, Torrey's successes include Mike Bossy, Clark Gillies, Pat LaFontaine, Denis Potvin and Bryan Trottier.

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:11 pm

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby BigAl » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:05 pm

I heard the hall of fame was going to strip Modano of his jacket and give it to Morrow.
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby #JTONTFJTGM » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:57 am

BigAl wrote:I heard the hall of fame was going to strip Modano of his jacket and give it to Morrow.

But not before stitching a Team Canada logo on it, right?

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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:58 am

Oh and if Modano was so good, why did he never have enough money to feed his dogs?????!??!??
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Eskimo Spy wrote:I would of course make some jokes if any of you died

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Dat1guy
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Re: Ralph sounds like a real ball...

Postby Dat1guy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:59 am

ScubaSteve wrote:Oh and if Modano was so good, why did he never have enough money to feed his dogs?????!??!??


:nice

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