Former Stars Thread

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby FrozenFailure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:00 pm

Jason wrote:Even Ritchie has more goals then Benn.


You know what? Good for Brett Ritchie to get out of this dumpster fire.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby B Kat » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:56 pm

slaps wrote:Vegas is awesome. I find it both sad and funny that Vegas can put that together from scratch, but Nill can't make a 5 year plan work in 7 years to do anything but get marginally better.

That expansion draft left some pretty good players exposed. The maneuvering done with regard to trades that protected players that were not technically protected also added a lot to their team. Not to mention, the team did not start with any albatross contracts either. Will be interesting to see how the expansion draft is changed for Seattle and how the GMs do their protecting this time.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:26 pm

Yeah the expansion draft for Vegas was bullshit. And then the retarded trades some teams like Florida made because they were scared of the expansion draft were even more bullshit. It’ll take a couple years, but they’ll waste the huge advantage they started with.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Math » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm

The expansion was built to give Vegas the biggest chances possible to be successful as quick as possible. As an untraditional market (the specific Vegas market in fact), the team had to win right now to ensure success and further loyalty. The League knew that giving Vegas an expansion team was a gamble and to be mistaken about this choice was not an option. For Buttman, it was no question to go through a traditional expansion process with 3, 4, 5 years of deep sucking before being legitimate and taken seriously. On the last four expansion, only Minnesota did well: Columbus won its first playoff game after more than a decade, Nashville was about to move and Atlanta actually moved.

Yes, the Golden Knights was the "misfits" team but some of the teams had to expose pretty good players. The franchise went well beyond the craziest expectations, surfing on novelty and surprise effect (remember, that was quite the same for the Stars).

That being said, it's true that McPhee did a tremendous so far but it's still too early to judge, he will eventually do some mistakes and the real for the Golden Knights will be when they find themselves in the bottom of the rankings, piling some significant losing streaks because this will happen some time.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ToddM » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:16 pm

All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Math » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:50 pm

I'm wondering who were those guys that predicted Vegas to be at the bottom of the barrel after their inaugural year. With a triple Stanley Cup winner goaltender, guys like Perron, Neal, Marchessault, Haula, Smith, plus all those who could have a pretty decent season and did have a pretty decent season, it was obvious that the Golden Knights would be in the battle for a playoff spot. If finishing first in the Pacific was an upset, being in the playoffs was clearly not IMHO. I was more surprised by the tenure of the defensive squad, in fact.

While some coaches/GMs clearly screwed on the players to protect, hence be eligible for Vegas to be claimed, other teams did not have many other options regarding their respective rosters.

I'm not telling that Vegas got an unfair advantage in the expansion draft. It was actually quite a very fair process in order to build a team comparable to the league standards and to compete in equal weapons from the very first season.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:01 pm

ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.



Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:09 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:
ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.


Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.

Exactly. Their fourth line was made up of decent third liners while most teams stock their fourth lines with AHL tweeners. Their bottom d pair were guys you'd call average or so guys instead of what most teams have, which is guys they want to do everything possible to avoid playing. They had no superstars, but they also had no real holes.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:38 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:
ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.



Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.


This is precisely why they deserve an asterisk by their first season and is why I got so tired of listening to everyone prattle on about how groundbreaking they were for getting so far as an expansion team.

Compare that roster to the 1993-94 Mighty Ducks or the 1991-92 San Jose Sharks. Those old teams were made of beer leaguers compared to the Knights of 2017-2018. Not even remotely in the same universe.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:40 pm

ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.


That's because they were basing it on their previous experiences with expansion teams which biased their perspectives. The last expansion team before them was the Wild/Blue Jackets which had absolute garbage starting rosters in 2000.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:07 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:
ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.



Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.


They may have gotten a better draft process, but they also paid an insane expansion fee.

And virtually no one even had Vegas making the playoffs.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Math » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:08 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Compare that roster to the 1993-94 Mighty Ducks or the 1991-92 San Jose Sharks. Those old teams were made of beer leaguers compared to the Knights of 2017-2018. Not even remotely in the same universe.


And the Sens 1993-1994 were the most brilliant, finishing 14-61-9. I think the Caps had like 8 wins during their first season.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:51 pm

slaps wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:
ToddM wrote:All that "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" is revisionist bullpuckey. Literally every single person everywhere looked at that roster before the season and wondered if they would even hit double-digit wins. 2/3rds of that expansion draft was pure *poo poo*, and Vegas got lucky on a couple of players really, really dumb GMs undervalued. But overall I think it was mostly Gallant telling his fast aggressive guys to play fast and aggressive. it's a style that works really well on teams that have a collective hangover from staying overnight in Vegas.



Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.


They may have gotten a better draft process, but they also paid an insane expansion fee.

And virtually no one even had Vegas making the playoffs.


Yeah, but, again, that's probably because prior expansion teams were awful and their last experience with expansion was in 2000.

The modern NHL is an entirely different environment and afforded the Knights a ton of advantages that the older expansion teams didn't have.

Their season deserves a big asterisk and I'm not really all that impressed by it.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby B Kat » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:40 pm

A little grim, but the mass shooting in Vegas preceded their inaugural season, Las Vegas was ripe for team bonding. The players did have a chip on their shoulders. Good for them. Especially Fluery.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ToddM » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:58 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:Calling "expansion draft gave them an unfair advantage" opinions revisionist bullpuckey is revisionist bullpuckey. Vegas looked light on top end talent after the expansion draft for sure, but everyone they took was an NHL player. That wasn’t the case at all in previous expansion drafts.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9610&p=496997&hilit=vegas+knights#p496997

General consensus (here and everywhere else) was that Vegas took the shittiest players in the draft and stockpiled draft picks because they were going to (and should) suck ass and build through the draft over the long term.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:16 pm

Yeah, but the shittiest picks in that expansion draft were FAR better than the best picks in the old expansion drafts.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:19 pm

B Kat wrote:A little grim, but the mass shooting in Vegas preceded their inaugural season, Las Vegas was ripe for team bonding. The players did have a chip on their shoulders. Good for them. Especially Fluery.

They were also very well coached.

One thing we and the rest of the hockey world missed was the fact they targeted a bunch of really fast puck hungry forwards. Even if these guys weren’t overflowing with a history of proven point production, they had a plan for how they wanted to play and got a lot of guys who could execute it well.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:20 pm

As opposed to say, building your roster for speed and puck possession and then hiring Hitch.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:24 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Yeah, but the shittiest picks in that expansion draft were FAR better than the best picks in the old expansion drafts.

I don’t have a problem with the expansion draft being reworked to let the new team be a bit better from the start. No team was really going to lose a player that was key to their organization. It’s like having to lose your second best third liner or your second best second pairing d-man. Most teams lose a player like that to free agency or retirement or injury most every season. It’s not franchise crippling.

Given these new teams are paying insanely high franchise fees, I get why the deal with the league involved a better expansion draft.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ToddM » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:57 pm

ScubaSteve wrote:As opposed to say, building your roster for speed and puck possession and then hiring Hitch.


...and then correcting that mistake by hiring a younger, balder Hitch.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby slaps » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:10 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Yeah, but the shittiest picks in that expansion draft were FAR better than the best picks in the old expansion drafts.


But that’s not Vegas’ doing. Even the worst 4th-line barely an NHL player today is DEFCON 3 better than 95% of players from 20 years ago. And even then - they don’t get an asterisk. Literally everyone thought they’d be terrible.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ScubaSteve » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:14 pm

ToddM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:As opposed to say, building your roster for speed and puck possession and then hiring Hitch.


...and then correcting that mistake by hiring a younger, balder Hitch.


And also divesting yourself of all speed.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:20 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
SaintAngerBH wrote:Yeah, but the shittiest picks in that expansion draft were FAR better than the best picks in the old expansion drafts.

I don’t have a problem with the expansion draft being reworked to let the new team be a bit better from the start. No team was really going to lose a player that was key to their organization. It’s like having to lose your second best third liner or your second best second pairing d-man. Most teams lose a player like that to free agency or retirement or injury most every season. It’s not franchise crippling.

Given these new teams are paying insanely high franchise fees, I get why the deal with the league involved a better expansion draft.


I don't have a problem with it either. But, that's not really what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that you cannot treat the Vegas Golden Knights as if they were the 1991-92 San Jose Sharks making it all the way to the finals because it's just not the same situation at all.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:23 pm

slaps wrote:
SaintAngerBH wrote:Yeah, but the shittiest picks in that expansion draft were FAR better than the best picks in the old expansion drafts.


But that’s not Vegas’ doing. Even the worst 4th-line barely an NHL player today is DEFCON 3 better than 95% of players from 20 years ago. And even then - they don’t get an asterisk. Literally everyone thought they’d be terrible.


Everyone thought they'd be terrible because they assumed so based on them being an expansion team and this opinion was biased because their last experience with an expansion franchise was with Minnesota and Columbus back in 2000, a totally different era.

I knew immediately from their expansion draft that they wouldn't be bottom feeders and, although I rooted against it, I expected them to be reasonably competitive with that lineup.

The Vegas Golden Knights are in their own special category outside of all the other expansion franchises.

If the Mighty Ducks in 94 or the Sharks in 92 had made it all the way to the finals, that would have been nothing short of a miracle. But, the same can't be said of the Knights given that they had a reasonable lineup from the start.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby slaps » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:38 am

Just listened to the Mike McKenna interview on Puck Soup. He's a tremendous interview. Well worth the 25 minutes or so. Also, it's incredible to me that NBC continues to hire who they do for their broadcast "talent" when guys like McKenna are available.
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby ToddM » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:40 am

ScubaSteve wrote:
ToddM wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:As opposed to say, building your roster for speed and puck possession and then hiring Hitch.


...and then correcting that mistake by hiring a younger, balder Hitch.


And also divesting yourself of all speed.


We should be GMs.

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Jason » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:20 pm


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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby SaintAngerBH » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:48 pm

Is anybody really surprised?
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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Math » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:45 am

The Avs tried the same last-chance-discount-contract with the former first pick overall. Did they really expect a different outcome with Nichushkin...?

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Re: Former Stars Thread

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:27 am

Math wrote:The Avs tried the same last-chance-discount-contract with the former first pick overall. Did they really expect a different outcome with Nichushkin...?

Their gamble costs them essentially nothing. He's on a one-season, league-minimum deal. Even if he's completely useless, they can scratch him or send him down to the AHL and not worry about the cost too much. Nill giving him a two-season $3 million per deal was one of the dumbest things by any GM over the last few seasons. Nill bid against himself to pay a whole lot for a guy who wasn't even in the top 50 KHL players.
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