GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

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B Kat
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby B Kat » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:21 am

That Nill was available and willing sealed Joe's fate.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:45 am

B Kat wrote:That Nill was available and willing sealed Joe's fate.



I think that cost Joe another chance for sure, but Gagliardi all but said he didn't think Joe had the skills or instinct necessary to run the franchise in the press conference for NIll. I do agree with the assessment by some that Joe was so focused on being nice to players and making sure they ended up in good places that he didn't get the best return in trades. You think the Kings were concerned about Jack Johnson's feelings when they shipped him out for Carter? Hell no, they wanted the best return. What could Joe have gotten for Ryder if he shipped him someplace he may not have liked very much?

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby CycloneGU » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:04 pm

slaps wrote:
B Kat wrote:That Nill was available and willing sealed Joe's fate.



I think that cost Joe another chance for sure, but Gagliardi all but said he didn't think Joe had the skills or instinct necessary to run the franchise in the press conference for NIll. I do agree with the assessment by some that Joe was so focused on being nice to players and making sure they ended up in good places that he didn't get the best return in trades. You think the Kings were concerned about Jack Johnson's feelings when they shipped him out for Carter? Hell no, they wanted the best return. What could Joe have gotten for Ryder if he shipped him someplace he may not have liked very much?

In some cases he had few options. He had to get Morrow to waive a NTC that sent him into the playoffs, basically. I'm sure he's happier to be playing hockey now while his buddies here are booking tee times.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:51 pm

Actually, I think we came out really well in the Morrow trade.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ToddM » Thu May 02, 2013 12:51 pm


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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu May 02, 2013 1:09 pm



-The Kari extension is just fine. That's below market value for a top 10 goalie, and you can always sit him down or ship him out if/when Campbell is ready.
-Weren't you just defending the Glennie pick the other day?
-You already know my opinion on the Fistric trade.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 02, 2013 1:55 pm

Kari's deal -- While I'm not a fan of overpaying for goaltending, I don't see how Kari's contract is a big deal. There isn't a cap problem here, and extending an NHL goalie is fine. "three NHL-ready goaltenders in the AHL" simply isn't true. Nilstorp had never played a minute of North American hockey when he was signed, so he shouldn't have been a consideration when thinking about what to do with the NHL roster. Bachman had a nationally televised shutout last season but otherwise was pretty generic. Campbell had only played a handful of AHL games the season before at that point.

Benn's holdout -- "then the Stars began losing games by one goal as their PPG center sat at home". Are you talking about Modano sitting at home? The Stars haven't had a PPG center since Brad Richards.

Fistric -- Don't let these advanced stats betray you. If Fistric was so awesome, his loss would have been felt by the Stars. It wasn't. If he was so awesome, he wouldn't get the least amount of ice time of any Oilers d-man. If defending is where he's great, he wouldn't be fourth among Oilers d-men in shorthanded ice time per game. I'm sorry, but lamenting the loss of a dude who can barely crack the lineup of teams with terrible defenses is crazy.


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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Thu May 02, 2013 3:31 pm

Dillon - Lots of teams were after Dillon once he grew a foot in a year.

Goalies - Most of the Stars really good goalies didn't start in the NHL until they were around 25 or 26.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Thu May 02, 2013 3:43 pm

In the future you shall refer to Benn as a .9 point/game center.

(this season he dropped to a .8)

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu May 02, 2013 3:47 pm

I love when people fudge Benn's stats to make him look like an elite player. On HF, you'll seem him referred to often as a "consistent 70+ point player" even though he yet to get to 70 points.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Stars2099 » Thu May 02, 2013 4:07 pm

If I had a chance to sit down with ex-GM Joe, I'd really want to pick his brain on his battle plan. The way this team is structured, it has a lot of D prospects and cap space allowing for a big trade. I wonder if he had any players targeted or was he just gonna see what was out there this summer.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Thu May 02, 2013 4:10 pm

I think for the last summer and this one he was hoping to find a great trade opportunity, but never got it.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 02, 2013 4:23 pm

The Frugal Gourmet wrote:In the future you shall refer to Benn as a .9 point/game center.

(this season he dropped to a .8)

I know. Close enough to round up if you want to be generous, but Todd's point is still a funny one when you look at the outcomes.

In those games Benn missed, the Stars were 2-2-1 for 5 out of a possible 10 points.

With Benn's .8/.9/PPG contributions, the Stars were 20-20-3 for 43 out of a possible 86 points.

Could Benn have helped the Stars get those five points the team missed with him at home? Sure, why not. Keep in mind though, even if they swept those first five games, they still wouldn't have made the playoffs. I guess if Benn had been with the team the whole season, we can be happy about the possibility of finishing 10th instead of 11th.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Thu May 02, 2013 4:54 pm

Also, it's spelled cojones.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ScubaSteve » Thu May 02, 2013 4:57 pm

I hadn't thought of blaming our 5th straight playoff miss on Jamie Benn's holdout. That is genius.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby B Kat » Thu May 02, 2013 5:04 pm

So you're saying that even with a broken wrist Benn put up .9 ppg?

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Thu May 02, 2013 5:12 pm

B Kat wrote:So you're saying that even with a broken wrist Benn put up .9 ppg?


No, only .8.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby wonko80 » Thu May 02, 2013 6:01 pm

Did he actually put up .8 while injured or does the .8 include the rest of the season?

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ToddM » Thu May 02, 2013 7:03 pm

Hey, you guys read my stuff! I'm totally stoked.

I'm still not a fan of Lehtonen's contract, especially if you've got a supposedly franchise goalie waiting in the wings. $5.9 mil? Ok. For the next 6 years? Uhhh....
This is particularly true since Lehtonen is not yet a Top Ten Goalie. He's close, but his GAA and save percentage put him top 15, tops. Maybe that will change under the new "culture."

Benn's holdout cost us points in the beginning of the season, when you want to establish something. Anaheim came out en fuego, then tailed off but it didn't matter because they'd already built up their huge lead. It's much harder to come back than to come down, altho the 2011 Stars did manage it. It wasn't just those five games, either: it took him a good 4-5 games just to get back into game shape. That's 1/10th of the entire season right there without a #1 center. I beleive we were something like 3-6-1 during that span.

I know what you all think of Fistric: that third-pairing defensemen don't have much of an effect on game/season outcomes. I'll make sure to remind you of that every single time you complain about Jordie Benn/Philip Larsen/Aaron Rome. Wait, what's that? Those guys are often healthy scratches and have no effect? Oh, ok then.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ToddM » Thu May 02, 2013 7:06 pm

Oh, as for Glennie: I like him as a player. He seems to be a pretty effective, speedy and occasional score-y third line center with a physical edge. You can never have too many of those players on your bottom six.

But that's still a wasted first-liner if that's what he tops out as. Just ask the Wild when they drafted Eric Nystrom 10th overall. Altho with Glennie there's still a chance that, in a full season, he could start putting up insane point totals once again. Who knows? He's still only like 21.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 02, 2013 7:50 pm

ToddM wrote:I know what you all think of Fistric: that third-pairing defensemen don't have much of an effect on game/season outcomes. I'll make sure to remind you of that every single time you complain about Jordie Benn/Philip Larsen/Aaron Rome. Wait, what's that? Those guys are often healthy scratches and have no effect? Oh, ok then.

The mistake you're making is in thinking Fistric is an upgrade over Larsen/Benn/Rome. I'll complain about their crappy play, but that doesn't mean I want Fistric back. I'd prefer a quality replacement.
I got a ranch in downtown Dallas/I buy diamonds by the ton/Chase cuties in my Cadillac/Drill oil wells just for fun/But when it comes to boots, I need a deal/That will fit me right, toe to heel/So I get my boots at Western Warehouse.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby ToddM » Thu May 02, 2013 8:41 pm

Troy McClure wrote:
ToddM wrote:I know what you all think of Fistric: that third-pairing defensemen don't have much of an effect on game/season outcomes. I'll make sure to remind you of that every single time you complain about Jordie Benn/Philip Larsen/Aaron Rome. Wait, what's that? Those guys are often healthy scratches and have no effect? Oh, ok then.

The mistake you're making is in thinking Fistric is an upgrade over Larsen/Benn/Rome. I'll complain about their crappy play, but that doesn't mean I want Fistric back. I'd prefer a quality replacement.


Last year Fistric led the entire team with 1.78 goals allowed per 60 minutes. (it dropped to 1.46 this year with the Oilers, second best on the team behind Corey Potter). Considering Fistric plays about 15 minutes a night, that means Fistric was on the ice for one goal against every 5 games or so.

This season, Benn's GA/60 was 2.36, Larsen's was 2.50 and Rome's was 2.80. So, Fistric has them all beat on defense by a country mile.

For hilarity's sake, Fistric also outscored Larsen (5) and Rome (5) and tied Benn (6) in fewer games.

Would one fewer goal here and there have made a difference? Considering we lost 10 one-goal games (1/5th of the season), I'd say yes.

I realize you all want Bobby Orr as our 6/7 d-man, but I'd rather have someone who's not going to *f-bomb* up and let in an easy goal in a close game. A guy who almost never lets in goals qualifies as a good defenseman in my book. I liken him to Craig Ludwig for a lot of reasons. Was Ludwig soley responsible for us winning the Cup? Of course not. Was he a reason why we won the Cup? Absolutely. You're only as strong as the weakest link in the chain, and if that weakest link is Fistric, you're in a good spot.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Jason » Thu May 02, 2013 8:52 pm

ToddM wrote:Oh, as for Glennie: I like him as a player. He seems to be a pretty effective, speedy and occasional score-y third line center with a physical edge. You can never have too many of those players on your bottom six.

But that's still a wasted first-liner if that's what he tops out as. Just ask the Wild when they drafted Eric Nystrom 10th overall. Altho with Glennie there's still a chance that, in a full season, he could start putting up insane point totals once again. Who knows? He's still only like 21.


Nieuwendyk had nothing at all to do with that pick. If you're going to blame anyone it's Tim Bernhardt. Why would you rank Glennie that high if you're not going to bother to interview him? It makes no sense. As for Nystrom he was drafted by Calgary not the Wild.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 02, 2013 9:25 pm

ToddM wrote:I realize you all want Bobby Orr as our 6/7 d-man, but I'd rather have someone who's not going to *f-bomb* up and let in an easy goal in a close game. A guy who almost never lets in goals qualifies as a good defenseman in my book. I liken him to Craig Ludwig for a lot of reasons. Was Ludwig soley responsible for us winning the Cup? Of course not. Was he a reason why we won the Cup? Absolutely. You're only as strong as the weakest link in the chain, and if that weakest link is Fistric, you're in a good spot.

No, I don't expect Bobby Orr as the #7 d-man. I'd love to have a guy as good as Ludwig as the #7 d-man. Unfortunately, that's not Larsen or Fistric.

I just don't buy that stat you're quoting as telling the whole story. Sorry. It's a cute number, but save that crap for baseball.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby SaintAngerBH » Thu May 02, 2013 9:50 pm

Just listened to the podcast with Heika and Ralph. Ralph flat out said he thinks this team will be a playoff team when Jamie Benn is back on the wing.
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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby CycloneGU » Thu May 02, 2013 9:57 pm

SaintAngerBH wrote:Just listened to the podcast with Heika and Ralph. Ralph flat out said he thinks this team will be a playoff team when Jamie Benn is back on the wing.

Who the hell decided Benn was a center in the first place?

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby Troy McClure » Thu May 02, 2013 10:17 pm

Good stuff. Thanks, Mr. Anger.


Team MVP

Heika: Whitney
Ralph: Won't pick one on a non-playoff team


Most improved player

Heika: Dillon
Ralph: can't answer


Most inspirational leader

Heika: Nystrom (mention to Fiddler)
Ralph: Nystrom, Fillder, and Robidas. Mentions Robidas plays too many minutes and practices too much.


Rookie of Year

Heika: Dillon
Ralph: Dillon


Biggest offseason change

Heika: New coach
Ralph: adding Nill. Ralph deep throated Nill on air.


What should we expect to see

Heika: Expects to see centers. Said he believes the organization wants to move Benn back to wing, but will need to get a first and second line center. Benn stays at center if they can't add a center. Expects to see up to 17 of the same players back.
Ralph: Nill knows the team has to add. Have to wind up with a few bad contracts to compete. Will see a lot of the same faces. Have a real need at center and a real need on defense. Will be a playoff team when Benn is on the wing.
I got a ranch in downtown Dallas/I buy diamonds by the ton/Chase cuties in my Cadillac/Drill oil wells just for fun/But when it comes to boots, I need a deal/That will fit me right, toe to heel/So I get my boots at Western Warehouse.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Thu May 02, 2013 11:09 pm

I like that they are all questioning adding someone like Bozak, questioning if he is a true #1 center, which is absurd. He's not. But he's better than anything we have now, and we desperately need an upgrade. I'd class Filppula in that same category as well. Not a true top-tier player, but a damn sight better than what we have now.

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Thu May 02, 2013 11:56 pm

slaps wrote: I'd class Filppula in that same category as well. Not a true top-tier player, but a damn sight better than what we have now.


Flippula sucks, dude. He is protected by Zetterberg and Datsyuk and averages about 40 points/season. To put that in perspective, Cody Eakn scored at a 48 point pace this season.

No, he would not be better than what we have. He might be a slight improvement over Fiddler, if we played him on the 3rd line.

Bozak is slightly better the Flippula.

Are we really that concerned aboutt purging second rate talent from two mediocre teams that scraped into the playoffs? That's not our biggest problem, is it?

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Re: GM Joe's last rites; a stinking Red Wing to be hired

Postby slaps » Thu May 02, 2013 11:59 pm

I prefer to think of it as Zetterberg and Datsyuk overshadowing Filppula and him just needing the opportunity to unleash the beast within.

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