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Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:11 pm
by BigAl
The good news is that Gurianov is still fun to watch.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:22 pm
by Knives Out
The downside is we still suck. The upside is that the Blues lost their exhibition game 4-0.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:23 pm
by Troy McClure
ScubaSteve wrote:I forgot this was today but I wouldn’t have watched it anyway. Judging from the comments it looks like I didn’t miss anything.

This team still sucks and can’t produce offense. They’re too old and too slow.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:25 pm
by SaintAngerBH
I wish the NHL would finally address shot blocking. I like Gainey's old idea of making it illegal to go down to block shots. Sick and tired of slap shot after slap shot getting deflected away by diving skaters. It really is the scourge of the NHL as Razor put it a while ago.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:27 pm
by wonko80
The Stars are just making people think that they're still terrible at offense. Just wait until a game with something on the line.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:28 pm
by cdanew

Yup. Pretty much.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:11 pm
by SaintAngerBH
That was exciting.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:32 pm
by slaps
Troy McClure wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I forgot this was today but I wouldn’t have watched it anyway. Judging from the comments it looks like I didn’t miss anything.

This team still sucks and can’t produce offense. They’re too old and too slow.

I think it’s more coaching than players.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:59 pm
by Troy McClure
slaps wrote:
Troy McClure wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I forgot this was today but I wouldn’t have watched it anyway. Judging from the comments it looks like I didn’t miss anything.

This team still sucks and can’t produce offense. They’re too old and too slow.

I think it’s more coaching than players.

The Stars talked up using their training camp to work on their transition game, getting defenders involved in the rush, and creating offensive chances. They were pumping this stuff up through their media people. Lots of PP work as well.

And this was the product?

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:27 pm
by slaps
Troy McClure wrote:
slaps wrote:
Troy McClure wrote:
ScubaSteve wrote:I forgot this was today but I wouldn’t have watched it anyway. Judging from the comments it looks like I didn’t miss anything.

This team still sucks and can’t produce offense. They’re too old and too slow.

I think it’s more coaching than players.

The Stars talked up using their training camp to work on their transition game, getting defenders involved in the rush, and creating offensive chances. They were pumping this stuff up through their media people. Lots of PP work as well.

And this was the product?

The Stars have plenty of players who have objectively proved that they are capable of scoring and playing an offensive game. The system structure and the coaching insistence on defense above all else is the reason why they can't score.

Just fire Bowness and get Gallant or someone who can effectively balance good team defense with calculated aggression. Bowness is a bad head coach.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:28 pm
by ScubaSteve
They have proved they have players who were capable of playing Lindyball 5 years ago. I have my doubts that any of the core guys can still play that system effectively.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:44 pm
by slaps
Pavelski scored almost 40 goals last year. He hasn't obviously dropped off like Benn has, so even accounting for a career year, he should have scored a bunch more. So should Seguin, Hintz, and really Benn too.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:17 pm
by Troy McClure
Pavelski is 36 and Radulov is 34. That their games dried up over an off-season isn't a surprise. It happens to a lot of guys in their mid 30s. Radulov looks several steps slower, and that's not coaching.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
by cdanew
Yeah, I think it is more the players than the coaches. Montgomery didn't necessarily want to play this style, but I think he was smart enough to look at his roster, see the strengths and weaknesses, and adapt by changing what he wanted to do to what he needed to do to win games.

Could this group of players potentially produce more offense? Yeah, I think maybe they could. But not so much as to offset the offense and opportunities they would be giving up.

This is from Shapiro's article on the 1-1-3 system the Stars (and other teams) run:

Dallas gets referred to as an old team, but in many ways that also translates to discipline within their system. You don’t need to be fast or spry to run the 1-1-3; you just have to read plays effectively and know your role based on your position on the ice.

The 1-1-3 works even better when you have a strong skating defenseman like the Stars do with both Miro Heiskanen and John Klingberg, a fact that makes their overall defense even better now that Roman Polak is out of the mix.

The dedication to the 1-1-3 is one of the reasons the Stars don’t score off the forecheck as much as they probably should. Instead of being overaggressive with a second or third forward in support, the ideal is based on getting the puck back by intercepting the pass or controlling the dump in.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:23 pm
by SaintAngerBH
slaps wrote:Pavelski scored almost 40 goals last year. He hasn't obviously dropped off like Benn has, so even accounting for a career year, he should have scored a bunch more. So should Seguin, Hintz, and really Benn too.

How much of that was Joe Thornton feeding him passes? Were they on the same line?

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:24 pm
by SaintAngerBH
Dallas needs to shed its old dead weight this "summer."

Do not bring Perry back for starters. Signing Pavelski for 3 years was idiotic.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:21 pm
by ToddM
The 1-1-3 system is so *fargin'* stupid. "Let's send in one guy to beat three, win 2 or 3 individual puck battles, and then we'll maybe get a shot off from the boards or the blueline." It relies almost entirely on offense from your defenders, and we're lucky to have a bunch of really good ones, but sheesh... I'd rather have 5 20-goal forwards forechecking and charging the net than one d-man flirting with a 10-goal season.

The Blues aren't a good team because they're slow and stupid. They're a good team because they cycle in the offensive zone like no one else. They bring in the heavies on every offensive shift and gradually wear down defenses while creating offensive chaos and, eventually, really high quality scoring chances. That's NOT what we do. Though we're practically the same size as them, so... why not?

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:56 pm
by Troy McClure
The 1-1-3 is dumb because it means you are giving up two thirds of the ice.

You're not even really pressuring the other team until they get to your blue line. Even if you're really good at forcing turnovers there, it still means you have a long distance to go to get the puck to a scoring chance. If you're a slow team like the Stars, it's even worse because plodding that long distance gives other teams a chance to get back.

It's safe in the sense you should never be outmatched in your own end, but it's a terrible system.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:17 pm
by ScubaSteve
You guys really missed sports, huh?

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:49 pm
by ToddM
Not at all. Tho it was nice to watch EPL when it came back.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:28 am
by slaps
Troy McClure wrote:Pavelski is 36 and Radulov is 34. That their games dried up over an off-season isn't a surprise. It happens to a lot of guys in their mid 30s. Radulov looks several steps slower, and that's not coaching.

Sure, they may have lost a step, but not that many.

I do think Radulov’s issue is coaching. More so than most, he needs to be engaged. Montgomery was figuring it out, but Bowness.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:31 am
by slaps
cdanew wrote:Yeah, I think it is more the players than the coaches. Montgomery didn't necessarily want to play this style, but I think he was smart enough to look at his roster, see the strengths and weaknesses, and adapt by changing what he wanted to do to what he needed to do to win games.

Could this group of players potentially produce more offense? Yeah, I think maybe they could. But not so much as to offset the offense and opportunities they would be giving up.

This is from Shapiro's article on the 1-1-3 system the Stars (and other teams) run:

Dallas gets referred to as an old team, but in many ways that also translates to discipline within their system. You don’t need to be fast or spry to run the 1-1-3; you just have to read plays effectively and know your role based on your position on the ice.

The 1-1-3 works even better when you have a strong skating defenseman like the Stars do with both Miro Heiskanen and John Klingberg, a fact that makes their overall defense even better now that Roman Polak is out of the mix.

The dedication to the 1-1-3 is one of the reasons the Stars don’t score off the forecheck as much as they probably should. Instead of being overaggressive with a second or third forward in support, the ideal is based on getting the puck back by intercepting the pass or controlling the dump in.

So it’s players, not coaching, even though the coaches run a system that’s bad at producing offense?

Look, I blame Nill as much as anyone here, but coaches say a lot of things. Montgomery ran his system, it was just a boring system. Bowness cranked that up to 11. But that’s also probably a large part of why they got their jobs - playing a system that Nill wants.

The Stars are still overreacting to the loss to the Blues years ago.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:42 am
by SaintAngerBH
Yep and that's why Nill should have been fired years ago. I'd say in 2017 along with Ruff. If the Stars are out early again, I really really hope Nill is finally gone.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:12 am
by Troy McClure
slaps wrote:
cdanew wrote:Yeah, I think it is more the players than the coaches. Montgomery didn't necessarily want to play this style, but I think he was smart enough to look at his roster, see the strengths and weaknesses, and adapt by changing what he wanted to do to what he needed to do to win games.

Could this group of players potentially produce more offense? Yeah, I think maybe they could. But not so much as to offset the offense and opportunities they would be giving up.

This is from Shapiro's article on the 1-1-3 system the Stars (and other teams) run:

Dallas gets referred to as an old team, but in many ways that also translates to discipline within their system. You don’t need to be fast or spry to run the 1-1-3; you just have to read plays effectively and know your role based on your position on the ice.

The 1-1-3 works even better when you have a strong skating defenseman like the Stars do with both Miro Heiskanen and John Klingberg, a fact that makes their overall defense even better now that Roman Polak is out of the mix.

The dedication to the 1-1-3 is one of the reasons the Stars don’t score off the forecheck as much as they probably should. Instead of being overaggressive with a second or third forward in support, the ideal is based on getting the puck back by intercepting the pass or controlling the dump in.

So it’s players, not coaching, even though the coaches run a system that’s bad at producing offense?

Look, I blame Nill as much as anyone here, but coaches say a lot of things. Montgomery ran his system, it was just a boring system. Bowness cranked that up to 11. But that’s also probably a large part of why they got their jobs - playing a system that Nill wants.

The Stars are still overreacting to the loss to the Blues years ago.

I think we're seeing the worst case scenario where it's bad coaching combined with old players falling off that leads to this team struggling to score goals.

I always point to the PP as my reason why. If these aging guys were still putting up the same PP numbers as they did in years past, then I might be more on the side of this only being about coaching. But they're not. Their PP numbers are not good, and you can't blame a super conservative system for that.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:51 am
by ScubaSteve
There's no creativity on the team. Spezza was the last guy who would try something occasionally that wasn't just a dump in or a cycle. And when you only play the system (which is basically the same system everyone else plays), but you don't have the horses to do it faster than the other team, you're not going to be effective.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:06 pm
by SaintAngerBH
The over-reaction to 2016 has had far-reaching effects.

Re: 7/12 Panthers @ Stars -- HAS BEEN SUSPENDED

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:43 am
by slaps
Nill - "you can teach creativity, but you can't teach BIG!"