To Jim Nill (Personal message)

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The Frugal Gourmet
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:33 am

Yesterday I asked myself whether Hintz/Gurianov could be our top or at least second pairing if the ice time ticked up by about 5-6 minutes for those guys.

Also note: Gurianov has played 5 fewer games this season than Benn & Seguin and Hintz has played 7 fewer.

It seems like they at least keep some of the veterans fresher, as they are scoring sufficiently often to give them a break.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby cdanew » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:11 pm

This is from Shapiro's game article from the AZ game:
4. Roope Hintz’s usage has been a big topic of discussion since the Stars’ coaching change.

While Jim Montgomery used Hintz frequently, interim head coach Rick Bowness has dialed back his usage to extreme lows.

It’s something Bowness discussed on Sunday before the game. He said that on Saturday, he lost track of Hintz in the shuffle and he needed to get him up to 16 or 17 minutes against Arizona.

Hintz played 13:37 against the Coyotes, but he made the most of those minutes when he scored the winning goal. Hintz also had seven shot attempts and hit a post in the first period.


If you are the head coach and running the forwards, how do you "[lose] track of Hintz in the shuffle"? That is concerning to me.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:13 pm

Because he hasn't done it in decades? This is the thing that worried me about when they said "he's coach until the end of the year". Shouldn't they be open to head coaches now that they don't have an official one?

Take your time getting the right one, sure, but still be open to the process.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:20 pm

If nothing else, giving more ice time to young legs would ease the strain you're putting on the vets we already worry need maintenance days just to get through the season.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:25 pm

The good news is that I don't feel like the veterans are actually playing that hard in most games. In a few of 'em, yes. I feel like they've already been trained to conserve their strength over the season. I think that might be one the of the differences when players hit this age.

But I'm not really super displeased with any of them right now. Seguin, Radulov, and even Benn are at least not playing like absolute dog *poo poo* any more. So there's that.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby BigAl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:36 pm

I suspect the issue with Hintz is that he gets 0 pk time and only 2nd unit pp time. When there’s only 48ish minutes of even strength to divide amongst 4 lines then the average player gets only 12 minutes of ice.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby wonko80 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:40 pm

Earlier in the season when Monty was here and Shapiro was tracking the shift length (since it was one of Monty's goals), he'd made a comment that Hintz had the shortest shift lengths of anyone on the team. Not sure if that is still the case, but it could add up over a game to a couple of minutes less of ice time if he just changes quickly.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ScubaSteve » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:56 pm

Hintz was getting shuffled down the lineup because before last night he only had one goal in the previous six weeks. Should’ve sold high.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby slaps » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:30 pm

Bowness is not a good coach. I know we like to dump on the players here, but this stifling, defense-first hockey is (1) insanely dull, (2) like 10 years out of date, and (3) isn't that effective.

I think it's sad that the Stars keep ignoring that their most successful season to date is the season Ruff just let everyone go run and gun, and the only reason the team didn't go further is Kari. Imagine what they could do with decent goaltending - they may actually be fun to watch and successful.

I just find myself caring less and less about seeing games, even if they are winning. It's so *Dang ol'* boring watching a team playing for a 1-0 win.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:52 pm

According to Seguin, the team's fortunes started to turn around when they started sending in a second forechecker more often. Mistakes sometimes happen from chaos, but so does offense.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Math » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:58 pm

What I like about Bowness is a noticeable typical british phlegm with that little Thames accent touch. I imagine him quite well with a mellon hat, Havana cigar and a glass of scotch, telling instructions from a 8mm black/white projector, communicating with letters typed on a Remington machine and using a good old blackboard with chalk. To be honest, I have a great sympathy towards him.

However, besides that...

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:06 pm

The Frugal Gourmet wrote:According to Seguin, the team's fortunes started to turn around when they started sending in a second forechecker more often. Mistakes sometimes happen from chaos, but so does offense.

And it's a mistake that isn't fatal. Even if your two forecheckers get caught deep, there's still three guys able to defend any oncoming rush. If the coach is terrified of giving up a 4 on 3 against with the goaltending we're supposed to have, then he's too cowardly for this job.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ToddM » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:12 pm

The Frugal Gourmet wrote:According to Seguin, the team's fortunes started to turn around when they started sending in a second forechecker more often. Mistakes sometimes happen from chaos, but so does offense.


Weird how sending in just one guy didn't result in trillions of goals.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:17 pm

ToddM wrote:
Weird how sending in just one guy didn't result in trillions of goals.


We just need the right man for the job: Benoit Hogue.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:31 pm

The Frugal Gourmet wrote:
ToddM wrote:
Weird how sending in just one guy didn't result in trillions of goals.


We just need the right man for the job: Benoit Hogue.

How quickly you forget the one man wrecking crew that was Nik *fargin'* Hagman.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:44 pm

oh yeah. that guy was dominant as long as no passing of any kind was involved.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby B Kat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:08 pm

slaps wrote:Bowness is not a good coach. I know we like to dump on the players here, but this stifling, defense-first hockey is (1) insanely dull, (2) like 10 years out of date, and (3) isn't that effective.

I think it's sad that the Stars keep ignoring that their most successful season to date is the season Ruff just let everyone go run and gun, and the only reason the team didn't go further is Kari. Imagine what they could do with decent goaltending - they may actually be fun to watch and successful.

I just find myself caring less and less about seeing games, even if they are winning. It's so *Dang ol'* boring watching a team playing for a 1-0 win.

I haven't noticed much difference between Monty or Bowness. Same defense first, winning mentality. The only run and gunning being done is when the Stars turn over the puck.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby wonko80 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:16 pm

slaps wrote:Bowness is not a good coach. I know we like to dump on the players here, but this stifling, defense-first hockey is (1) insanely dull, (2) like 10 years out of date, and (3) isn't that effective.

I think it's sad that the Stars keep ignoring that their most successful season to date is the season Ruff just let everyone go run and gun, and the only reason the team didn't go further is Kari. Imagine what they could do with decent goaltending - they may actually be fun to watch and successful.

I just find myself caring less and less about seeing games, even if they are winning. It's so *Dang ol'* boring watching a team playing for a 1-0 win.

Yes, they are boring to watch. I guess if they win in the playoffs it's worth it? I just don't think this style can win the Cup. Even if it did, what a boring Cup.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby The Frugal Gourmet » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:34 pm

I don't really think it's that boring, honestly. It now seems like the same style as almost the entire NHL plays.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ToddM » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:42 pm

The Frugal Gourmet wrote:oh yeah. that guy was dominant as long as no passing of any kind was involved.


Except for those tape-to-tape passes from his stick straight to my heart.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Math » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:25 pm

I don't find it boring either. It's sometimes frustrating but they can at least find a way to win. If you get the 2 pts by playing like *poo poo*, it's somehow positive. If you see the standings, the first teams are the ones that have the best defense. It's nowadays hockey where they look like more as a chess game than a UFC fight. So Yes we could be Montréal, masturbating on our beautiful offense -- one of the best in the league -- and the best goalie in the galaxy, score 5 goals per game and still manage to lose.

Ruff's days were great in terms of show, that style of hockey was really nice to see and fans were pleased with that. But that kind of system cannot be sustainable long-term. Two examples here:

The Swiss team had Ralph Krüger as head coach for 15 years. With him we got from a second divisional squad playing against teams like China or Italy to the next-to-top-6 international teams, managing to beat Russia and getting the shootout win vs. Canada in the 2006 Olympics as the highlight. And it was damn boring, always winning 1-0, 2-1. People at all levels were fed up and he was replaced by the offensive-minded Sean Simpson. What a drastic change: we pounded Canada, Russia, the Czech Republic, not 1-0 with luck and God as a goalie, but 5-1, 6-2. We were about to build a statue of him before other teams understand the concept and crushed us repeatedly. The team took several steps backwards as we often get routed by Sweden and Finland with a terrible defensive system. He lasted two years as a coach before being replaced.

My hometown team had Heinz Elhers (father of Jets Nikolaj) behind the bench. Same story: boring defensive hockey, even worse than Lemaire and Hitch together. But with a very limited team we got three time in a row in the playoffs, losing everytime in 7 games against the then-champion. GM wanted a change, he was replaced by a guy that had one rule: total freedom for everybody. We got 7-1, 9-2 wins, held the first place in the standings, everybody was delighted. And then the other coaches got the system, they easily found the solution and outcoached him. We got terrible losing streaks and missed the playoffs. He was fired after one unique year.

In fact, it depends on what does one's prefer: playing champagne hockey and never get to the ultimate goal or get a boring garbage Cup? I vote for the garbage Cup. I think it was Lemaire who said it's the talent that gets you in the playoffs, then it's the defense that allows you to go on a deep run, but finally it's your bottom-6 that makes you win the Cup.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby slaps » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:29 pm

The most recent Cup winners had sound defensive bases, but could actually score and thrive offensively. Since Ruff got the boot, Dallas is the place offense goes to die.

Jamie Benn, even at a reduced effectiveness, is not a 40-point player under a different system and coaching style. Seguin is back to a point a game player, and Heiskanen is likely closer to Brent Burns than to Roman Polak.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby BigAl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:48 pm

FWIW, the stats from the Hitchcock season, just 2 years ago.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leag ... 32018.html

Klingberg had his best year, Benn and Seguin had 79 and 78 points, Radulov had 72 points.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby Troy McClure » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:47 pm

I don't care about the score at the end of a game, but I do care about scoring chances. If there aren't a decent number of quality scoring chances, then it is a boring game. It's boring because minute after minute can pass without either team threatening to actually score a goal.

Trying to prevent opponent scoring chances is going to take drama out of a game, but doing so to the extreme point where you're playing so safe that you also greatly limit your own ability to generate scoring chances can make for super boring hockey -- a game played mostly along the walls and in the neutral zone with shot totals largely filled with unscreened point shots and lame wristers from along the walls. And in this age of no fighting and fewer body checks than ever, the game then becomes soccer on ice if played this way.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ScubaSteve » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:51 pm

BigAl wrote:FWIW, the stats from the Hitchcock season, just 2 years ago.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leag ... 32018.html

Klingberg had his best year, Benn and Seguin had 79 and 78 points, Radulov had 72 points.
Is it because Hitchcock’s system was more offensively minded than the current system?


Yeah. Montyball makes Hitchball look like Lindyball.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ToddM » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:56 am

Troy McClure wrote:I don't care about the score at the end of a game, but I do care about scoring chances. If there aren't a decent number of quality scoring chances, then it is a boring game. It's boring because minute after minute can pass without either team threatening to actually score a goal.

Trying to prevent opponent scoring chances is going to take drama out of a game, but doing so to the extreme point where you're playing so safe that you also greatly limit your own ability to generate scoring chances can make for super boring hockey -- a game played mostly along the walls and in the neutral zone with shot totals largely filled with unscreened point shots and lame wristers from along the walls. And in this age of no fighting and fewer body checks than ever, the game then becomes soccer on ice if played this way.


It also gives you a near-zero margin for error in case a puck gets deflected into the net off a skate or a fluke goal from the blue line goes in.

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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby slaps » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:30 am

Bowness deployed Comeau, Faksa, and Lindell in 3-on-3 OT versus the Avalanche. That's playing it safe not just to the extreme, but past the extreme and to 11. He's *fargin'* terrible. He seems like a nice guy, but the game passed him by like 15 years ago.
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby BigAl » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:02 am

Would the 2 points we got in that win have been more valuable under a different coach?
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby ScubaSteve » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:06 am

slaps wrote:Bowness deployed Comeau, Faksa, and Lindell in 3-on-3 OT versus the Avalanche. That's playing it safe not just to the extreme, but past the extreme and to 11. He's *fargin'* terrible. He seems like a nice guy, but the game passed him by like 15 years ago.


How many times do you want them to throw Jamie out there to start OT and then give up a goal on the first shift before they try something different?
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Re: To Jim Nill (Personal message)

Postby slaps » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:10 am

How about Hintz, Heiskanen, and Seguin?
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